Wednesday, March 12, 2008

Blue Brain: When Tinkerers Promise.

The promise of the conscious computer is just too much to resist. In order for the vaunted "singularity" to occur, someone will have to come up with that, or something close. The singularity is defined as that moment when computing power will surpass the human's ability to, well, to think. At the singularity, computers would have developed the ability to redesign themselves beyond any human's ability to compehend. Computers would be superhuman.

Enter the Blue Brain, described in a recent article in SEED. At Lausanne, Switzerland, 8,000 microprocessors are being incorporated into a simulation of a brain, each processor being a neuron. At a predicted processing rate of 22.8 trillion operations per second, the overall performance should really haul....shouldn't it?

Henry Markram is a neurological researcher who feels that reductionism in research is at a dead-end, drowning in data, with no firm theory emerging. The complexity of just two neorons interacting is too much for current models to handle. Blue brain is intended to be thenext and ultimate model, a self-organizing, neural simulation for describing the brain in the future.

"The simulation is getting to the point," Schürmann says, "where it gives us better results than an actual experiment. We get the same data, but with less noise and human error." The model, in other words, has exceeded its own inputs. The virtual neurons are more real than reality.

The ulimate intent of the Blue Brain is not just modeling neural function, it is to model consciousness and experience itself.

"There is nothing inherently mysterious about the mind or anything it makes," Markram says. "Consciousness is just a massive amount of information being exchanged by trillions of brain cells. If you can precisely model that information, then I don't know why you wouldn't be able to generate a conscious mind." At moments like this, Markram takes on the deflating air of a magician exposing his own magic tricks. He seems to relish the idea of "debunking consciousness," showing that it's no more metaphysical than any other property of the mind. Consciousness is a binary code; the self is a loop of electricity. A ghost will emerge from the machine once the machine is built right.

These researchers have seen the model self-boot into a supposedly functional model of a baby rat's neocortical column. Their full color simulations of the inteconnection diagram is impressive, beautiful even. But it remains to be seen whether the internal experience of the model rat is valid, or if there even is one. After all their accomplishments so far are very deterministic, where developing neural pathways seek to connect themselves according to rules input by the programmers. The promise of nondeterministic behavior - in their proposed robot rat - remains to be accomplished, much less a transparent window into the robot's internal experience. Can determinism result in non-determinism? Can this model even prove that?

The faith in technology sustains, however. The promises of technical multiplication through Moore's law makes them believe that they can reduce the complexity of a human brain model from the current required size of "several football fields", consuming an estimated $3 billion in annual power intake, to a single chip in 10 years.

If this succeeds, is the singularity imminently upon us? And if it fails, does it falsify the possibility of ever knowing ourselves? Or could it be both, as we turn over to machines the too-complex-for-us task of comprehending the human brain? The unasked question is: why would we do that? Probably too metaphysical for technicians to consider.

7 comments:

Anonymous said...


There is nothing inherently mysterious about the mind or anything it makes," Markram says. "Consciousness is just a massive amount of information being exchanged by trillions of brain cells. If you can precisely model that information, then I don't know why you wouldn't be able to generate a conscious mind."


"I don't know why" -- always a phrase to look for when evaluating how much credence to give someone's assertion. I have no doubt that Kurtzweil's "singlularity" will eventually happen, possibly much sooner than anyone thinks. Will it result from brute force computational power or a key insight into the nature of consciousness. I recommend Susan Blackmore's little book on interviews about consciousness. Once again I can't come up with the exact reference.

I'm very curious Stan, if we in fact find that conscious non-determinism is quite explainable, even by deterministic means, how would that affect your faith?

[Beelz]

Anonymous said...

I have to smile at that challenge; it is the same as Antony Flew's famous challenge to Christians in 1956: What evidence would it take to falsify your faith? If you are familiar with Flew, in 2004 he became a deist and potential theist, based on evidence.

But I welcome the chance to discuss these things. I don't really have "faith", in the sense which Atheists think of religious blind belief, baseless and irrational. There are a great many reasons to see the probability of certain non-physical realities. Just because man-made philosophies like Materialism declare it not so, does not in the least make it not so. These philosophies, of which Atheism is one, are transparently logically false. Given that, what is not false?

There is a human faculty of discernment that needs to be understood, and then used on those things not measurable.

Discernment has steps (I won't go into them here) that allows the discrimintation between true and false, both on sensory input and on internal conceptualization. Sometimes it has to be invoked purposely in order to filter out the emotional. But the existence of internal creative concepts, of itself, indicates that "brain states" alone are not all that there is, that meaning exists, beyond the firing status of a billion billion neurons. The likihood of the deterministic firing status of those countless neurons inducing "meaning" into our experience is nil.

The computer fantasy depends on not understanding serial synchronous computing as a function of software. It is possible to view a working CPU in an eletron microscope vacuum chamber and shoot an e-beam at it. This will cause the conductors to "light up" when they are activated by the software. So we can trace the location of activity on the chip, by single stepping through the program, one clock cycle at a time, using an external emulator. While we can see the "neural" activity, this in no way gives any indication of the actual meaning of the software steps being executed. It would be too intensive to even determine much about data flow.

In the brain, the processing is not serial, not clocked, not synchronous; it is massively parallel with handshakes at every juncture. For this reason there is no such thing as a "brain state". The activity is not stoppable at a single point and analyzable like that of a serial, synchronous machine. Even if it were, there would be no "meaning" attached to it.

The brain is not likely to be fully understood, at least on material levels, for Godellian reasons also: a system cannot understand itself. Unless it transcends itself. Is there anything in us that transcends our material-ness enough to understand the system that is us? If there is, that transcendence could not be understood without a higher level of transcendence. The transcendence alone would falsify the materialism.

From "A History of Mathematics", Carl B. Boyer, pg 611:
"In a sense, Godels Theorem, sometimes regarded as the most decisive result in mathematical logic, seems to dispose negatively of Hilbert's second query. In its implications the discovery by Godel of undecidable propositions is as distrubing as was the disclosure by Hippasus of incommensurable magnitudes, for it appears to foredoom hope of the mathematical certitude through the use of the obvious methods. Perhaps doomed also, as a result, is the ideal of science - to devise a set of axioms from which all phenomena of the natural world can be deduced. Nevertheless, mathematicians and scientists alike have taken the blow in stride and have continued to pile theorem upon theorem.

In short there can be no material falsification for anything that is outside the material realm: it is a lock out. Science is restrained to the material world.

So I'm not too worried in any sense about the full comprehension of determistic causes for consciousness as a philosophical issue. However, I do think that partially uncontrollable robots are definitely a potential problem. That's the most likely product of the Blue Brain.

But let's talk about knowledge of things that are true. I can know that cause and effect exsts is "true" to a very high probability due to personal observation and discernment. The converse is paradoxical and never seen. The same holds for a number of other First Principles.

What would it take to falsify the existence of Christ? Finding the body. But no body ever produced could be conclusively proven to be his.
Or proving his non-existence. Not likely, for many historical reasons.

What would falsify Atheism? Requiring material proof of no God. Such proof cannot be produced, so it is falsified. That's why agnosticism was introduced by Huxley. "If you don't know, then say you don't know".

Atheism is philosophicaly and rationally its own worst enemy. It thinks that it wants to be rational, but it has to deny, without proof, existences beyond the material.

So I don't have a belief so much as a rational attachment to Christ.

Sorry for the length, but...you asked.

Anonymous said...

I intend to focus more attention on your response tomorrow, but as filler...

I see that you studiously avoided answering my question per se. You seem to be so confident no materialistic explanation for consciousness is imminent that it's not worth addressing. I don't know, Stan, you're setting yourself up for quite a fall. Better have the executive parachute ready.

Much has been made of Godel’s proof in the last couple decades. Does the rather technical result from meta-formal systems have anything relevant to say about brain systems, which you more or less admit are not state machines anyway?

No system can understand itself. I'm not convinced.

You're a hardware guy. So you think that when all is said and done, the reverse engineering of the mind will reveal a big cloud labeled "soul." Is this accurate?

[B]

Anonymous said...

Hmmm, I thought I answered it here:

"So I'm not too worried in any sense about the full comprehension of determistic causes for consciousness as a philosophical issue."

Not sure what else to say that I haven't said already.

Finding an electrochemical scaffold for rational and intuitive cognition, what does that prove? Or disprove? Thought flits in and about the material brain; it doesn't stay there. So finding the scaffold is just going to cause more questions, as scientific discovery always does. It will push the issue up another level.

BTW removing the scaffold stops the thoughts from flitting around; that is not proof that the thoughts are the scaffold.

Anonymous said...

Beezl Said:
"Much has been made of Godel’s proof in the last couple decades. Does the rather technical result from meta-formal systems have anything relevant to say about brain systems, which you more or less admit are not state machines anyway?

I claim, not admit, that the brain in toto is not a synchronous state machine. However, each neuron that feeds consciousness can be an asynchronous state machine. These all operate in a massively parallel, and constantly rewiring, fashion. This is not speculation, it is shown to be the case. The structure of the brain is temporary, it is constantly restructuring itself, even in the elderly. The determinate hardwired brain doesn't exist. The constantly self-modifying scaffold is the brain that exists. Given that the hardware is modifiable by the software, how likely is it that the software will be deduced by taking a photo of the hardware?


Back to Godel:
Underlying all scientific pursuit is the presumption that the physical things being investigated are rationally constituted in a fashion that they can be understood. Godel's theorems apply to all rational systems. If we assume the mind to be a rational and material product, then Godel's theorems apply. If the mind is not, then not only do Godel's theorems NOT apply, neither does our presumed ability to properly measure and comprehend it.

Stan said: "No system can understand itself."

Beelz said: I'm not convinced.

I have (tucked away somewhere) a machine proof of Godel's theorem - a Turing machine, I think. For the machine to try to understand itself always produces a paradox within the machine's system. If you are interested, I'll find it for you. I don't remember who devised it, it is used as a teaching tool as I recall.

Anonymous said...

I guess I should address this question:

Beelz said: "So you think that when all is said and done, the reverse engineering of the mind will reveal a big cloud labeled "soul." Is this accurate?

In terms of a big cloud, it is empirically shown that consciousness affects matter at the quantum particle level, even at a distance, suggesting that it is part of a field of some sort. Do I understand this? No. Do I think that the mind is a force field? Or that mental force fields extend in a quantum fashion far beyond our brain scaffold? We have to wait and see, don't we?

If we define my "soul" as my essence as a human, I'd say that I have that. If we say that it is not mechanically attached to the brain-scaffold, then I have that too. If it exists as a part of some universal quantum field, I don't know, but why not, what would falsify this? This is where physics joins up with the metaphysical. Is there any reason to think that if my consciousness exists outside of my cranial space - and it does, in quantum terms - then why would it stop existing when my cranial space grinds to a halt?

This would happen only if the brain matter causes and exerts the external mental force: that's not the case, because matter responds in advance of the conscious decision that it will be observed.

But what if the mental force is a distributed, external, universal field, exerting its force onto the brain and onto matter? Then we have defined a soul, or at least an extensible non-material mind, existing beyond the brain scaffold.

As I understand quantum mechanics, it is the determinism that is the illusion. The released "particle" acts as a non-determinate Schroedinger wave, even through the slits. The particle is the illusion, the wave of superposed probabilities is the reality.

Possibly determinism in the brain-mind is the illusion, and non-determinism is the reality. If it is non-determinate and non-physical, not restricted to the cranial cavity, is it a soul?

Probabilities are stronger in this direction than not. So yes, under these caveats, I think a soul is likely. (As are other dimensions, about which we know nothing).

Anonymous said...

Once again I find myself without the time required to properly address this. Give me a day or two.


Hmmm, I thought I answered it here:


Sorry, I misread you. Thoughr you were saying you weren't concerned about the possibility for success in that endeavor.

[Bez]