Sunday, October 24, 2010

Transitions

The difference between an ideology defender and a truth seeker is immense: they are polar opposites. The chasm between them is something that I will now attempt to define. To start, I will elaborate some on my own experience, which was one of going from closed to open, from a perception of dominance to a voluntary position of subservience.

As an Atheist, I had confidence in my own superiority because I had consciously chosen the path of the elites. It works like this: To become an intellectual elite, all one has to do is to utter three little words: “ain’t no God”. By having had the intellect to make this choice, one is elevated to eliteness. But even better, one gets to choose an ethic, a morality, and to choose one that is convenient, one that fits what you do, who you are.

Having chosen a compatible morality, one becomes instantaneously righteous, perfectly moral, perfectly superior to, say, Christians, who cannot ever consistently meet the demands of their morality. The ease with which the self-anointed morality is achieved reflects directly on the character of the self-anointers: only a superior character could be so completely moral, so easily.

A perfectly righteous and intellectual elite then cannot be blamed for exuding self-righteousness; self-righteousness is almost certain for these individuals. This personal elevation has a meaning attached to it: this personal elevation was due to Atheism and to the self-selected morality – so they must be correct, because they work. This means that Atheism is morally correct, and that the morality is intellectually correct. What is not to love about that?

The Atheist has created a personal moral and intellectual superiority that is precious, it is cherished. The self is now highly satisfactory; it must be defended. In order to defend the Atheist self, the Atheist is free to use any position he finds necessary, because the defense of correct things must be correct no matter what it is. So any logic that supports the correct things must be correct. Any logic that does not support correct things must not be correct. The correct things are determined first; the axioms are created in their support.

Thus the logic that Atheists use bears no resemblance to traditional logic or rationality. This is an important feature to remember.

The chasm between ideologists and seekers of truth is binary: it is the difference between closed and open.

My own transition from ideologist to seeker began when I started to listen to other Atheists. Very frequently their positions went against common sense and common decency. I discovered that their self-endowed reputation for logic and rationality was highly disputable. As a logic designer I had some experience with logic. But I didn’t know how to define rationality, how to determine its coverage or its limits, what the actual functional limits of science were or why that was the case. So I had to learn how to think from the ground up. What is rationality? What is logic? How do we know that they are valid? How do we know that anything is valid? Most importantly, how do I construct a valid worldview?

Leaving an ideology can be painful, especially if one’s self-value is heavily invested in an ideology which supports that self-value. Leaving a supportive ideology means losing all the psychological benefits which that ideology bestowed, and it is a fearful loss of one’s internal, core, perceived personal value and self-image. In the case of Atheism, it is a loss of self-perceived superiority in both intellectual and moral eliteness. And what is gained? Only subservience. And not subservience to truth, because for the Atheist there are no absolutes, and that tenet is an Absolute Truth, a moral concept. So losing an ideology can also mean losing a morality, and even if the morality was self-derived, it can be a serious loss, an impediment to any transition. It is not a trade made lightly or without some source of coercion.

In fact, Atheists sometimes rail against subservience and humility: these are declared to be an abomination, a denigration of the human independence and integrity. (These same arguers will, of course, argue that there is no free will and that humans just happened and have no special value). Accepting the humility necessary to acquiesce to truth, when it is found, is not easy to choke down when a person has been basking as an intellectual elite and personally 100% moral in his past existence.

So if we are to use logic to define ourselves, the question becomes, which logic are we to use? Atheist rationalization or traditional rational logic? A seeker of truth has to consider how each logic is supported by its fundamental axioms and how it compares to observed reality both in life and across the universe. Traditional logic doesn’t work for Atheism and Atheist logic doesn’t work for seekers of truth.

The entire purpose of traditional logic is to discriminate against absurdity and falseness. It builds on a fundamental structure of universal validity, and provides methods of detecting fallacy. Logic is exclusive: it excludes falseness in favor of demanding validity. This is diametrically different from the increasingly popular use of inclusive thought and Atheist logic.

Two of the most powerfully deceptive of the inclusive theories are those of evolution and infinite universes. For example, evolution provides for any and all eventualities without exclusion (including no change at all) to have evolved from a single cell, and specifically denies anything to do with the advent of that original single cell. And the infinite universe theory means that anything that is conceivable not only could, but will exist in some parallel universe somewhere… including an orbiting teapot, a Flying Spaghetti Monster, and pink unicorns. This is declared inevitable: the equations defining it are “robust”. This is the new look of science.

But what does it mean to have a “theory of everything” that is, in reality, a theory of anything no matter how absurd? If theories and equations discriminate against nothing whatsoever, then what do they actually prove? Isn’t science supposed to be logic based, and designed, even required, to filter out the absurd? No longer, it appears. Much of science has quietly aligned itself with Philosophical Materialism over the past century, thereby becoming aligned with ideology, an eventuality that was not supposed to happen. When observations now include characteristics of the observer, the objectivity which science prided itself on in its heyday has become subjective. When a legitimate science such as biology becomes subservient to a non-empirical offshoot like evolution, science becomes beholden not to experiment and verification so much as to extrapolated inferences, and predictions retrofit into experimental results. Validity must be taken on the word of experts, who are never reticent to give it (especially biologists). The scientists become authoritarian in their ideology-of-absurdity, as Hawking demonstrates (“Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist”, Hawking says, with the definitude of a religious prophet). Something from nothing is now science, not absurdity. Even Feynman’s “many histories” model of quantum electrodynamics, which Hawking fearlessly applied to the emergent universe, means that histories of our existence are not really known – or knowable – knocking out all prior knowledge, scientific and otherwise. Absurdity is now endemic; a functional ignorance is “scientifically” enforced as an ideology.

So the thinking of the semi-educated is no longer held to the exclusivity of traditional logic; it is watered down with theories-of-anything-no-matter-how-absurd, and their acceptance without observational verification, and merely on the word handed down by the authority of the elites. It is indistinguishable from ideology because it is ideology.

Traditional logic is fighting uphill in today’s culture as well. Tolerance is valued over discrimination, to the point that discriminatory thinking is culturally and legally derogated. So how can discriminatory logic survive in a blatantly anti-discriminatory culture?

I don’t have an answer to this, short of personally defending the discrimination against fallacy as vehemently as I possibly can. And that is the purpose of this blog, which invites rational discussion based on, and held within, traditional principles of logic, and which has those principles explicit in the right hand column.

I’m not certain how to evaluate the difference in moral weight between temperance and truth; I certainly have the capacity to sacrifice the first in intemperate defense of the second. But I will hope for and try to maintain both temperance, and the pursuit of truth through traditional logic. There has to be something that is valid and true in the universe (even Atheists agree functionally as I showed above). Whatever is really, actually valid and true is worth defending, as is the process to find it.

87 comments:

Andrew said...

Stan,

As I feel that this is a direct response to our previous conversation I feel compelled (determined lol) to comment.

As an Atheist, I had confidence in my own superiority because I had consciously chosen the path of the elites.

I agree your reasoning for becoming an atheist is irrational.

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Although some atheists have adopted secular philosophies,[11][12] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.[13]

Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs. -Sam Harris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism


I became an atheist when I found that the alternative had no bearing in reality. If god could be demonstrate to exist, I would change my mind.

It is nice to know that the majority of intellectuals have reached the same conclusion, but it is not required for me to defend my position. Helps though because they have some snappy quotes.

sonic said...

The analysis of the 'advantages' of atheism (part of an elite- perfectly moral/righteous…) is spectacular.
I understand the difficulty of losing an ideology (having done so myself) and I think that a further fleshing out of your experience here might make compelling reading (albeit perhaps not completely relevant to the project at hand).
"The theory of anything no matter how absurd" is a winner. --My life may in fact be proof that this theory is valid, but now I'm joking-- aren't I? ;-) --
When it comes to temperance "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" makes sense to me- (one of the few things I know from the Bible and one example of a prayer that works for me).

One observation I would like to point out--
Many atheists are actually complaining that 'god isn't like that,' referring to some specific teaching (doesn't live on Olympus or throw lightening bolts, for example). It seems that there are and have been many incorrect ideas about what God is like, and that these teachings have been used to do harm (subjugate the masses-if you will).
For this reason I think it is important to define God as clearly as possible (first cause, for example) so that the discussion can be turned to 'what is God like?' on fair terms.
(If God is a random quantum fluctuation, then I would like to think I could accept that. Right now I don't think that makes any sense, but …)

Thank-you. This site has been (and continues to be) instructive for me.

Stan said...

Andrew,
According to Hawking, there is not just one history of the universe/world; just as Feynman's many histories theory works for quantum theory, so it works for cosmos. So historical reality doesn't exist as a single entity. This means that what we experience, which is actually a memory of what just happened, has an infinite number of realities.

So, which reality do you choose? How do you know which to choose? What are the limits of that reality? How do you know it even has limits? How do you know that what you think are the limits are not merely cognitive human limits rather than barriers to prevent reality from escaping into an improper arena, which let us call super-reality? How do you test any reality that might be outside the cognitive limits, or over into super-reality? Can you provide data of replicable experiments that have been performed to confirm or deny any of these issues? If not, why would you believe in limits to reality at all?

But as I recall, your demand is that a deity show himself in some experimentally replicable fashion before you will accept the existence. If that happened, however, the results and their cause would be declared material, since it is testable, replicable, etc, and therefore, not a deity. So that is a lock-out of your own design. We've been through all this before, yes?

On the other hand, your demands seem to satisfy you regardless of any scrutiny of their limitations, so: be happy, don't worry. Presenting them as non-negotiable conditions /mandates just makes them non-discussable as well. Such a position has become a dogma in your belief system / worldview.

Stan said...

Sonic,
Thanks. There are many reasons to become an Atheist, and most of them are related to either rebellion against ecclesiasticism (harsh treatment, or "God is not like that", as you mentioned), or to an absent or defective father between the age of 3 and 5 y.o. coupled with rebellion against female upbringing in the absence of the father. Either way, it is rebellion that triggers a hostility toward authority figures, especially God - who receives a lavish amount of hatred.

What I tried to illustrate was the benefits and ego perqs that obtain as a pull to complement the push of rebellious pain. The pain and the fatherhood issues are commonly rejected as "not applying to me", but the pull of the perqs is harder to deny.

Bill Clinton and Obama are examples of the absent father syndrome and the resulting drive to achieve, coupled with anti-authoritarianism. Anti-authoritarians frequently seek to become authoritarians themselves. Obama actually said he was "sticking it to the man" shortly after he was elected; it had to be pointed out to him that he WAS the man.

The defective father syndrome is covered in a book by Paul Vitz, "The Faith of the Fatherless".

Andrew said...

Stan,

Demonstrate would include a rational argument. But yes, something tangible and demonstrable would be infinity more convincing. It may be clearer and more expedient if you asked my position before refuting a caricature of it.

For example, I would accept the claim that God exists if someone claimed Jesus/God said “And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.” (John 14) and then invoked Jesus' name to “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.” (Matthew 10) I would readily accept this demonstration of the existence of the God of the Bible.

Also, if someone claimed God will "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" and then called all his debtors to tell them their debts are forgiven, and shortly after received a call from the bank saying not to worry about those pesky mortgage payments, well that would be very convincing as well.

I would not accept an argument such as: moral laws exist, thus there must be a moral law giver, thus if you eat crackers on Sunday your sins will be forgiven (or however that is suppose to work)..

You should however define what you mean by 'god', else I might have to assume you mean Ganesha the Hindu goddess. (About a billion Hindus in the world.)

Also, how do you not know that fairies are not part of some super-duper-reality which .. apparently has no discernible effect on our reality, yet is important for me to believe in .. for some reason. If I claimed this to be true, would you expect some sort of -gasp- evidence -gasp- for my claim?

Also, seeing as you can so easily pick apart Hawkings arguments, I'm curious as to why you are not applying for a position as the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics?

Ahmed said...

@andrew
Visit the Q&A at http://www.reasonablefaith.org/

@stan
great post.

Martin said...

Andrew,

"It is nice to know that the majority of intellectuals have reached the same conclusion, but it is not required for me to defend my position."

Regarding argument from authority, I've sparred with Stan before on this topic. It is perfectly rational to appeal to proper authority as a proxy for knowledge. In fact, I would argue that the vast majority of information in all of our heads is because we learned it via authorities in the proper fields. You're not going to sit here and do experiments of your own to learn that the earth is an oblate spheroid; I'm sure you accept it because geologists and astronomers say so.

That being said, who is the proper authority concerning the existence/non-existence of God? Who has carefully considered the evidence/argumentation both for and against? I would say that philosophers of religion are the most authoritative in this sense. They are most familiar with the most up-to-date argumentation on both sides of the equation.

Interesting, then, that 72% of philosophers of religion are theists.

You might not be aware of it, but there is a huge volume of literature defending theism rationally, in top peer-reviewed journals at places such as Harvard and Oxford.

You should consider stepping out of the box where all theists are idiotic fundamentalists.

Stan said...

Andrew said,
"Also, how do you not know that fairies are not part of some super-duper-reality ..."

The point you always avoid is that you cannot prove any limits to reality. You cannot prove it. But you believe it. So prove it already and we can go on to other arguments. Otherwise you are stuck at this point. You demand proof of your beliefs, yet you do not have any proof for this and still you believe it. Do you not see internal contradictions here?

BTW, my translation comes through as "forgive all transgressions..."

Also, do you care to refute any of my comments re:Hawking? Sarcasm is not an argument.

sonic said...

And my dictionary (American Heritage) defines
debt: 3. An offense requiring forgiveness or reparation: a trespass.

Andrew said...

Ahmed,

visit "http://www.religionisbullshit.net/"

Martin,

I totally agree with you regarding arguments from authority.

That being said, who is the authority for the study of reality? Scientists. "members of the National Academy of Sciences, perhaps the nation's most eminent scientific organization - fewer than 10 percent professed belief in a personal God or human immortality."

I've heard literally hundreds of arguments for the existence of God Martin, and yet people still throw out this "There are sophisticated arguments you are just not aware of". Well first off volume and sophistication doesn't mean true. And second off, present the argument.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

And does that mean that 28% of philosophers of religion are atheists? That's much higher than I would have expected.

Stan,

The point you continue to avoid is that you cannot prove the non-existence of fairies.

"forgive all transgressions..."

The doctrine of vicarious redemption is repulsive. I step on your toes, but rather than apologize to you, I beg god for forgiveness. However the actual point is that this is a truth claim and should provide a demonstrable effect.

I'm actually somewhat agreeing with you regarding the limits of reality but I'm interested to see how you can refute the existence of a super-duper-reality populated by fairies.

I do not need to prove limits of reality. All I need to do is point out the flaws of the claims of theism.

You have yet to define god.

Stan said...

Andrew 10 26 10
"I do not need to prove limits of reality. All I need to do is point out the flaws of the claims of theism."

From your perspective then, your work is done here. You have no plans to accept challenges head-on, you obfiscate with other ridiculous fabrications rather than answer a straight forward question:

Q: Can you prove the universe had no cause?

Evidence: there is a universe.

Fairies (teapots, FSM):no evidence; comparison is irrational.

Q: CAN YOU PROVE THERE IS NO FIRST CAUSE?

Of course you can't and that's why you resort to bluster, rather than argument and EVIDENCE.

I have defined the first cause several times for you, but you ignore it and claim that I haven't done it. What in the world are you thinking?? I'll make it easier for you: I have defined every term for you:

Q: CAN YOU PROVE THERE IS NO FIRST CAUSE?

First Cause: Coherent, very powerful, cause for the existence of the universe.

Powerful: the abiliity make things happen within its coherence.

Cause: no effect has ever been observed to exist without a cause.

Exist: In this sense, to have material essence.

Universe: the material essence within which we live; an effect.

Now. Did the universe have a first cause, or not? YES or NO. If no, then show your empirical, experimental, replicable, falsifiable evidence that proves it. No more b.s. Just answer the question.

Ahmed said...

Andrew,

Theists bring positive proof for God. Your comparision with fairies is flawed.

This fairies/santa claus is an issue if the topic is about atheist denying existance of God w/o any proof. And here's a answer by those who take that position against atheism:

Santa Claus, Tooth Fairies, and God
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7249


Secondly, don't expect miracles being personally performed on this site. Rationalitiy is the tool that is being used here.

Andrew said...

Stan,

Of course my charges appear ridiculous to you. That's rather the point. That the claim of a super-duper reality populated by fairies is no more falsifiable than the claim of a super-reality populated by god. Frankly, without some sort of rationale or evidence they are both ridiculous claims.

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities

Of course I cannot prove a limit on reality and make no claims that I can. Asking me to respond to that challenge is a red herring.

I am only responding to the claim that a god exists, I am not acting as a theoretical physicist.

Furthermore, I have said at LEAST a half dozen times, starting with my first couple posts, that I am refuting a THEISTIC god, and you yourself have described a deistic god as untenable as atheism. So why am I being asked to refute a position you yourself don't hold?

Stan: Finally, “arguing the first cause is just arguing for deism”. This is true. However, deism is no more logical than Atheism, because the basic argument from deism is that (a) yes, there was a creating intelligence that was very powerful, but (b) no, I have not had any contact nor do I see any undeniable physical, experimental, replicable evidence for personal experience of said deity, so I deny that the creating being, powerful as it is, informs or cares about people.

So not only do you think god is powerful, uncaused cause that created the universe, but apparently he informs and cares about you as well. I ask that you substantiate the latter so that I may actually address the claim of Theism.

Not that it matters, but I think the universe had a cause.

First Cause: Coherent, very powerful, cause for the existence of the universe.

Quantum fluctuations? All the energy of the potential universe expanding? This could be a coherent concepts that fit your latest definition of a first cause. I wouldn't call it god though.

Watch Lawrence Kraus' "A Universe From Nothing".

And how can you not say that it wasn't a fairy that sprinkled trans-dimensional pixie dust on the universe? You say it is irrational and I agree, but why? And how is that different from the god claim?

Ahmed,

Theists bring positive proof for God.

Fantastic! This is all I'm looking for! Ah, what positive evidence though? Feel free to shoot out your strongest piece of evidence and I'll respond directly to that.

If fairies are magic, and we should not expect to find evidence of their existence, then is it unreasonable to act as though fairies do not exist?

I'm not expecting any miracles here. The point is that there are likely millions of claims that would fall into the category of a 'miracle' and not a single one that I'm aware of comes even close to being considered authentic. And yes, I've looked. It's simply the sheer weight of the falsified claims and the complete lack of authenticated claims that has brought me to my position.

Stan said...

"The point is that there are likely millions of claims that would fall into the category of a 'miracle' and not a single one that I'm aware of comes even close to being considered authentic. And yes, I've looked. It's simply the sheer weight of the falsified claims and the complete lack of authenticated claims that has brought me to my position."

Considered authentic by whom? These are all historic forensic events, non-experimental/non-replicable/non-falsifiable (the definition of historical - forensics). Atheists will not admit the possibility of it under any circumstances. So the question is not if they were authenticated, but were they falsified? Of course not. But they can be denied outright, without any empirical resolution. And that's what you call lack of authentication - denial based only on philosophical materialism and nothing else. Just more Atheist ideology at work, not science, logic or reason.

Miracles, and falsification: Kindly show the empirical, experimental, replicated, and unfalsified data that supports your falsification of Lourdes (just one example). Then kindly show your work for the empirical, experimental, replicated and unfalsified data that refutes a single biblical miracle – just one - one definitive scientific refutation. Show your work, including how the experiment was performed, who performed it, who replicated it, and of course, the data which was made public.

A whole village of eyewitnesses verified it. Show us how you falsified it empirically, please. Show your work to support your claims and beliefs. (You won’t be doing this because you cannot. So I expect that you will change your claim to mere denial on some non-empirical, non-scientific basis that satisfies your a priori Atheism. In other words, I expect you to revert to ideology, as you have done before. So take care in considering your answers).

There is one thing new in your comment today: you have changed your mind from Hawking's spontaneous creation of the universe to a prior existing cause of the universe.

Was that a slip? Or did you change your mind? If you are serious, we might have a basis for discussion.
(continued)

sonic said...

Some observations-
1) The original Challenge, "Prove that there is no God", has not been met. In fact, there seems to be some agreement that it can not be met.
2) Further, it seems that there is an agreement that there was a cause to the universe.
3) The disagreement seems to be in the question, "What is the first cause (God) like?"
--Perhaps a being with a desire to know me- perhaps a random quantum fluctuation- perhaps these are not mutually exclusive.
4) The question, "What is god like?" can be addressed through evidence-- (although we would have to admit that we are currently aware of a minuscule portion of that evidence).

Is this helpful?

Andrew said...

Ugh. I wrote a full length response and it didn't post.

To sum up:

Stan, if you really want me to attempt to demonstrate how miracle claims at Lourdes and in the bible are untenable and contradict what can be observed and inferred by natural processes I will, but it's enough of a topic to warrant its own thread.

I suggest we stick to the topic of clarifying what you mean by god, and how you can claim to have any knowledge of a being that you declare to be exclusive to a reality beyond our own.

Sonic,

1) I readily, and repeatedly, have stated that it is impossible to prove there was no such thing as what could be described as god, by someone, somewhere. Only that when a specific claim is made, there seems to be no good reason to accept the existence of such.

2) 'A' cause, sure. Maybe that cause is a gravitational flux, or quantum foam. Or maybe not. I really do not know and do not claim to. I just lean towards the scientific consensus as I am not a theoretical physicist and the experts are.

Stan has stated that he doesn't think deism is any more valid than atheism, and as such his definition of God is a Theistic god and by his own words "informs and cares about people".

Thus my inability to invalidate the deistic concept is irrelevant as that is not the position I am arguing for. We have both stated that we believe deism is untenable, albeit for different reasons.

3) Yes this is what I am interested in. The claim that being that is properly recognizable as God exists, and there is evidence or rationale to believe in this assertion.

4) Yes, this is a natural extension of 3). I would be interested in any evidence towards this, however minuscule.

I think if that helps us stay on track it is very helpful Sonic. I hope that also helps clear up my statements regarding a first cause and Hawking/Mlodinow/Kaku/Kraus.

Stan said...

Andrew said,
I suggest we stick to the topic of clarifying what you mean by god, and how you can claim to have any knowledge of a being that you declare to be exclusive to a reality beyond our own.

Know what? No. Either you answer the question posed you or for the last time, quit wasting my time. It's not up to you to decide what is "on track" on this blog.

You brought miracles up, now you don't want to talk about them because you can't prove anything one way or the other about them. Skating away as usual.

Either prove there is no God, or go on back and play slap and tickle with your Atheist friends.

If you cannot do that, then I will not respond to any more of your nonsense. I will allow you post so that maybe others here might still want to play dodge ball and chase tail with you. For a while.

Andrew said...

Did you pull my last post? It was up and then gone within an hour.

sonic said...

Andrew-
I'm sorry, it seems my attempts to communicate have been distractions from the main point of the thread.
Answer the challenges posed by Stan.

Andrew said...

I've already written a response once, and while I saw it posted, it is now gone. I apologize if this is not as clear or as thought out as my previous post.

Sonic,

It seems that way since Stan gets to dictate the rules. Shrug, his blog.

Know what? The topic of this thread has nothing to do with miracles. He just picked the statement I made that is the hardest to defend and has refused to even acknowledge the other points I made. Who's skating away from what?

Stan,

I specifically said I would address them if you asked. Don't accuse me of ducking the issue when I flat out state I'll back it up if you ask. This is horrible reading comprehension on your part and you are also deliberately being provocative.

You are also asking me to prove there is no God at the same time? Well jeez this shouldn't be hard to boil down into a couple paragraphs.

Miracles (biblical)

Page 1. Creation of the world. God makes light, then days later makes the sun, the moon and stars. This is nonsensical. God makes the earth and moon separate and on separate days. In reality the moon is formed from the earth. I'm about 5 paragraphs in and these are the two most glaring faults.

Claims falsified.

Miracles (Lourdes)

67 "authenticated" miracles. Pick one and I'll investigate further. One you yourself find convincing.
Side note, 200 000 000 pilgrims to Lourdes, thousands of miracle claims and only 67 documented as authentic. Success rate of 0.000000335%. Awesome. Sure must be something in the water there. In any empirical experiment these would be pointed out as statistical blips.

God

So not only do you think god is powerful, uncaused cause that created the universe, but apparently he informs and cares about you as well. I ask that you substantiate the latter so that I may actually address the claim of Theism.

Stan has stated that he doesn't think deism is any more valid than atheism, and as such his definition of God is a Theistic god and by his own words "informs and cares about people".


His request to invalidate the deistic god (first cause) is dishonest as that is not the god he believes exists.

He's also stated that the natural and the super-natural are exclusive realms. Yet he has no problem claiming to be aware of the super natural.

His position is contradictory and thus invalid.

So sure, something you can call god might exist. But you Stan, cannot hold to your own rules and still claim to have any knowledge of him.

Skating away? More like a break-away! He shoots! He scores!

Just a little levity, don't take it personally.

sonic said...

Stan-
I believe the discoveries in physics last century have caused a hardening of positions.

If one applies the orthodox interpretation of quantum mechanics to the question, "How did the universe begin?", you get the answer "The universe became real (wave function collapse) when an observer took a measurement of it."
This description is antipathetic to the materialist position.
However, this description is in alignment with the notion of a creator.

In order to dispense with the notion of a 'wave function collapse' (and the need for a measurement) we get the 'many-worlds' interpretation.
I have studied this a bit, but haven't found the answers to these questions (perhaps you know)
How many universes are created every second? Can I experience the other universes in anyway? How can I know they exist?
It seems that we can't say that we find an electron where it is because that's where it is, but rather we find it there because a number of universes were created at the moment of our encounter.
Of course given what Zeh has to say about the 'many-minds' we can see that things may need to get stranger still.

Do people really base there theology on that?

Stan said...

I lost my last comment, too. Usually I create them in WORD and transfer them, saving the WORD document in a temporary file. I've lost too many in the past. Blogger has been hard to work with for the past week or so.

But I didn't save my last comment. So I will condense it here:

Andrew,
Prove there is no God. You have proved nothing and supported none of your statements. You even found 67 miracles which you reject, based not on their facts, but on convenience.

PROVE THERE IS NO GOD.

This is your last chance.

Andrew said...

That's funny, I thought I just pointed out that your position was contradictory and thus invalid. Thus I did disprove god. I thought your blog was based on rationality?

Your god is a contradiction in terms.

b. Non-Contradiction. If it is true, then it cannot be false; if it exists, it cannot NOT exist.

If it is unknowable, that in cannot be knowable. Make the mental leap.

If it is knowable, you can answer the question I've posed to you several times over several weeks.

So not only do you think god is powerful, uncaused cause that created the universe, but apparently he informs and cares about you as well. I ask that you substantiate the latter so that I may actually address the claim of Theism.

Stan says: "I am unaware of any questions I have not answered, repeat them if you wish."

Having two categories of existence which are exclusive of each other, you yet claim to be aware of the super-natural. I ask only that you substantiate your claim without contradicting your premise.

Sure, I did imply that a success rate of 0.000000335% is pathetic to justify Lourdes as a place of miracle healing. And if you look into the actual claims they are typically of MS or cancer patients (no arms growing back, nothing that doesn't occur naturally away from Lourdes on occasion) who's disease has gone into remission (often not actually at Lourdes though, but after visiting .. and seeing doctors *rolls eyes*)

However, I did not reject a single one of those "67 authenticated miracles".
Try actually reading what I wrote.

No comment on the disproving of miracle claims in the bible?

Curious add-on to that, if a claim is accepted as a miracle and thus the product of supernatural forces, does that not also invalidate your position the the natural and supernatural are exclusive? You seem to be wrong from every angle.

Stan said...

Since you now are attempting to use actual logic, let’s review your position.

1. There is no knowledge that is not produced by empirical, experimental science.

2. You accept, apparently, that there might be two domains: the natural domain (i.e. physical, material) and the supernatural domain.

3. You demand that all claims for the supernatural domain be experimentally verifiable within the natural domain.

To verify that Set B exists by testing any or all of Set A, is a category error. This has been pointed out numerous times. Your demand is irrational. Yet you persist.

You demand:
”Your god is a contradiction in terms.

b. Non-Contradiction. If it is true, then it cannot be false; if it exists, it cannot NOT exist.

If it is unknowable, that in cannot be knowable. Make the mental leap.

If it is knowable, you can answer the question I've posed to you several times over several weeks.”


Listing a definition of Non-Contradiction is a very good thing: you’ve been reading. First, you assume that I agree that there is no knowledge that is not empirical. Second, you make arguments such as your argument above without empirical justification that your premises are valid knowledge. Moreover, you use a First Principle of Logic (Non-Contradiction) which is not provable using empirical, experimental techniques. So using all this non-empirical, non-knowledge, you think you have proven something conclusively. This cannot be the case under the conditions of your own devising.
(continued)

Stan said...

(continued from above)
And you persist in ignoring the terms of the challenge:

Prove there is no God – using your own principles of empirical, experimental, replicable data.

You have provided not one jot of empirical data proving anything you have claimed, including that empirical, experimental, replicable data is the only knowledge that exists. Knowledge is not material, of course. You use this fact constantly, while denying it in the premises of your argument.

But to make the point more clear, you have not provided any empirical data to support your definition of knowledge, but you want that definition to apply with respect of what is knowable and unknowable.

” If it is unknowable, that in cannot be knowable. Make the mental leap.

My internal experiences are unknowable to you… if by “know” you mean empirically, experimentally, replicably, falsifiably. You either accept my witness or you don’t; you have no other choice. You cannot prove anything either way.

”So not only do you think god is powerful, uncaused cause that created the universe, but apparently he informs and cares about you as well. I ask that you substantiate the latter so that I may actually address the claim of Theism.”

and,

” Having two categories of existence which are exclusive of each other, you yet claim to be aware of the super-natural. I ask only that you substantiate your claim without contradicting your premise.”

My understanding of knowledge is expanded beyond yours, and includes the understanding that comes from internal processes, processes which are not available for empirical examination. These non-material entities – thoughts – and internal intuitions, abstract creations such as mathematical postulates, experiences, etc. cannot be disproved nor proved, they can only be related as witness experiences. Like the color red, you cannot know how - or even whether - I experience it. This is a contradiction only if knowledge is restricted to empirical knowledge, a position you make but do not take. Your demand is still a category error, as has been pointed out continuously- yet you insist on using the same error over and over.

” However, I did not reject a single one of those "67 authenticated miracles".
Try actually reading what I wrote.”


Then rather than unnecessarily attmept to demean them, actually refute the miracles, empirically, experimentally, replicably, falsifiably. That’s your claim, just do it. But start with the original miracles: the vision and the emergence of the spring. You have had ample chance to show us your empirical refutation. But you have not done it.

” No comment on the disproving of miracle claims in the bible?”

Go right ahead, show us the empirical data, experimental, replicable, falsifiable, which shows that any of them absolutely did not happen. You’ve had ample chance to show us that, too, and you have not done it. You merely make claims that you could do it, but you don’t.

” Curious add-on to that, if a claim is accepted as a miracle and thus the product of supernatural forces, does that not also invalidate your position the the natural and supernatural are exclusive? You seem to be wrong from every angle.”

Actually, getting you to agree to two separate domains was like pulling teeth. The next step is to understand the possibility of an interface between the domains (much like gravity supposedly interfaces adjoining universes); however, you are still stuck at “all knowledge is material”. With that false caveat dominating your thought process you will remain in the state of contradiction which you currently inhabit: demanding empirical proof, but able to provided none for your own beliefs; insisting that knowledge is empirical only, but unable to provide empirical data proving that such is the case.

Andrew said...

Stan, my comments are true by definition. Empirical evidence is not require to support the assertion that 1+1=2, just definitions.

You either accept my witness or you don’t; you have no other choice.

My understanding of knowledge is expanded beyond yours, and includes the understanding that comes from internal processes, processes which are not available for empirical examination.

This ^^ is really the crux of the matter. You provide no argument for the existence of god which is any more valid than any other theist. Basically, you have no argument.

Or rather, your argument is "I know the Truth, God talks to me in my head. You can't prove me wrong."

I've said from the start that I would be convinced by a rational argument, which by your definition is non-material. You should stop assuming my position, you keep getting it wrong. Also, your argument ^^ is far from rational.

I have agreed there are two categories of existence. Real and Not-Real. You call them natural and super-natural.

”Having two categories of existence which are exclusive of each other, you yet claim to be aware of the super-natural. I ask only that you substantiate your claim without contradicting your premise.”

Whoa whoa. Your answer to this is I'm making a category error?? You made a claim. An extraordinary claim. And tell me I am making a category error by asking you to substantiate it? Is this correct? I want to be very clear on this point.

I remind you that you claimed the two realms were exclusive. Your position is contradictory and thus false. You now wish to postulate an interface between the domains. Well that is a material claim.

I do understand the claim you are making by the way. I can imagine alternate realms, I can imagine prayer as a means to communicate between realms. A lot of imagining is going on .. just do not see any reason to think it is more than imagination.

I'll address the miracle issue in my next post.

sonic said...

From a parallel universe?!?!
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/11/if_nature_abhorred_a_vacuum_ne039891.html#more

Good reading.

Andrew said...

To be clear, this is what I said

Stan, if you really want me to attempt to demonstrate how miracle claims at Lourdes and in the bible are untenable and contradict what can be observed and inferred by natural processes I will, but it's enough of a topic to warrant its own thread.

I said nothing about performing my own experiments and falsifying each claim. I said nothing about proof.

Light originates from heat. This seems so elementary to me that I am having a hard time articulating why the origin of light prior to the sun, stars and moon is nonsensical.
Suffice it to say that the claim contradicts what is naturally observed. Do you disagree?

Formation of the moon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_hypothesis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY_5h5iPA8k

http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question38.html

http://www.universetoday.com/19718/formation-of-the-moon/

Again, this theory seems to lack the oh so crucial god hypothesis. Do you find the bible story more compelling? If so, why?

Lourdes: Here's an experiment:

Let's examine the millions of people who went to Lourdes in the hopes of healing and those which resulted in actual healing. Result
0.000000335% success, and cures are invariably for ailments that may have healed naturally (nobody has reported a miraculous regrowing of a missing limb, for example). Do you think the miracles claim still valid?

Furthermore, it appears the miracles were authenticated, not by an independent body, but by a group organized by the RCC. Still valid?

I don't know what account you are referring to (which is why I asked) but Wiki says that the 14 year old girl Bernadette Soubirous went alone, experienced it alone and dug the well alone, there was no "whole village" of witnesses.

There seems to be a whole lot of absence of evidence. Ie: "There is no evidence that this mysterious remedy does NOT work, therefore it works". Basically, this arguments from ignorance relies on a lack of research to somehow draw conclusions. While this is a powerful method of debate to switch the burden of proof, appealing to ignorance is a fallacy.

Again, by posing this challenge to me, am I correct in assuming that you find these claims convincing? If so, why?

Bloody hell. Does anyone seriously find this convincing??

Stan said...

’You provide no argument for the existence of god which is any more valid than any other theist. Basically, you have no argument.”

Exactly! Finally! You are demanding a material solution (argument) for a non-material object. What you have is witness testimony, which you cannot disprove.

If you don’t care for that situation, it’s just too bad: logic is what it is. You insist on using a category error fallacy as the basis for your position.

”You should stop assuming my position, you keep getting it wrong.”

What I have done is to comment on your daily shifts in position, and insist that you adhere to coherent arguments.

”Also, your argument ^^ is far from rational.”

But as you say it is not an argument. It is a situation for you to either deal with or merely deny outright without any evidence to support your denial.

”Whoa whoa. Your answer to this is I'm making a category error?? You made a claim. An extraordinary claim. And tell me I am making a category error by asking you to substantiate it? Is this correct? I want to be very clear on this point.”

You are slip-sliding terminology here. By “substantiate” you mean one of two things: (a) empirical data; (b) an argument you find congenial. You will not accept the proper substantiation: witness testimony. Don’t claim that witness testimony is not valid; we all depend on witness testimony every time we turn on the news or read a text book. But if you choose to attempt to refute it, you must use either (a) empirical data; or (b) an argument that I find congenial. Have at it.

And yes, making a claim about one domain by investigating another domain is a category error. By naming a second domain “not real”, you essentially continue your claim that a second domain does not exist. I claim that mental activity (thoughts, abstract creations, meaning) is not material, and therefore it is not within the material domain and not subject to material domain investigations. For example, you can make no valid claims about my mental activity, or you would already have presented your data. I also claim that the non-material mental domain interfaces with the material domain.

”Moon… Do you find the bible story more compelling? If so, why?”

Oh, you are talking about the metaphors. I was talking about the miracles, such as parting the Red Sea, raising the dead, etc.

Your arguments against the Lourdes events are not based in facts empirically discovered regarding the events, they are merely attempts to discredit them obliquely, without any fact finding involved. One correction though: the spring is not a well dug by the girl, it springs out of the side of a rock cliff, close to the bottom. I have seen it (while still an Atheist). The girl ran to the village, maybe 400 yards or so, and the villagers came and confirmed the spring. Your attempt to besmirch that fact with a false claim that the girl dug a well fails. You still have empirically proven nothing regarding any of this.

Oh, and saying that you never made the claim of empiricism to be used on miracles is beside the point: you made a claim of fact, and you haven’t backed it up; your original claim of ”empiricism providing the only knowledge” still stands unless you refute it. Do you refute it? Not any of your claims, in fact, have been empirically verified, and which all need material facts to support them.

Stan said...

”I've said from the start that I would be convinced by a rational argument, which by your definition is non-material. You should stop assuming my position, you keep getting it wrong”

Your position must be taken from what you say. What you have said is:

1. That there is no knowledge that is not empirical. (Do you now deny this??)

2. You responded to a challenge post asking you to prove empirically that there is no God; you have not done so.

3. You claimed that you would refute the existence of a theist deity; you have not done so.

4. You claimed that there are no unrefuted miracles; you found 67, but have provided no factual refutations.

5. Now you claim that your statements are "true by definition":

”Stan, my comments are true by definition. Empirical evidence is not require to support the assertion that 1+1=2, just definitions.”

So you speak in definitions, as would, say, a deity? Because you say it, it is so? This just becomes more and more bizarre.

”Again, by posing this challenge to me, am I correct in assuming that you find these claims convincing? If so, why?”

My beliefs are moot in this problem discussion. What we are discussing is your position(s) which I list above. You have made assertions which you have not backed up using your own position that empiricism provides the only knowledge. Your claims are empty. Your assertions are empty.

The position that empiricism provides the only knowledge is false, but you cannot admit to that, or your arguments fail under the duress of information access and creation outside of material existence (which is where all meaning resides). You have not used a single empirical data set to back up any of your claims; it is not clear that you know how empiricism works or what it is useful for. You do know that it is somehow connected to materialism and you apparently assume that means that it is connected to Atheism somehow. But it is not.

Andrew said...

So you don't find it convincing either?

Knowledge is not material, of course

So if you get shot in the head, you don't lose any knowledge?

Atheism is a refutation of theism. To claim your beliefs are moot is again, wrong by definition. You obviously have no idea atheism even means, despite my posting the definition at the top of the thread. Reading your blog is like witnessing the aftermath of a machine gunner using bullocks for ammunition.

Obtaining a valid definition of theism from you has been like pulling teeth. And the one you provided is contradictory to your position of exclusive realms.

Your claim that miracles occur is contradictory to your position of exclusive realms.

Insisting that witness testimony is reliable simply points at the weakness of your case. Witness testimony has been repeatedly demonstrated to be unreliable. The claim that "random bit of news, often backed up with video footage" is somehow on equal level with supernatural claims is preposterous.

By your standards of evidence you MUST accept the existence of alien abductions, palm reading, astrology, psychics, bigfoot and of course, fairies. Provide material, empirical, rational, mathematical or witness testimony to disprove the existence of all these things. Provide an EXAMPLE of what you would consider to be valid evidence disproving the existence of such things.

Here's an argument that would conform to your standards. "God doesn't exist, aliens told me so. Aliens from the 12th dimension. They beamed the information non-materially into my brain."

Prove I'm wrong.

You are now saying that both rational argument and physical evidence are category errors? Ok, we're done.

By DEFINITION your description of GOD is CONTRADICTORY. Thus by DEFINITION your God is INCOHERENT (breaks the Law of Non-Contradiction) and thus DOES NOT EXIST. This statement is TRUE BY DEFINITION.

I've asked repeatedly for clarification, in the faint hope you actually had some validation for your position, and you fall back to the unfalsifiable nature of your witness testimony.

You are telling me that pointing out your god is a logical contradiction is a category error. Unbelievable.

And I'm the ideologue? Laughable.

Stan said...

”So if you get shot in the head, you don't lose any knowledge?”

You lose memory cells, the substrate that holds knowledge. When we transfer knowledge, we change substrates for the transfer; we do not transfer actual memory cells.

”Atheism is a refutation of theism.”

Your own definition said otherwise, remember? Atheism reject deity. You are really out on a limb here; Go check your story with some experienced Atheists.

”To claim your beliefs are moot is again, wrong by definition.”

Read your own definition. Atheists reject deities. So prove that no deity exists, using your own constraints. Now you are really wasting my time.

Repeating for the nth time, this blog discusses Atheism. Go find a Theist blog if you want to continue to annoy someone.

”Your claim that miracles occur is contradictory to your position of exclusive realms.”

Prove your miracle claims, refuting them using your own empirical, materialist constraints. You have never proved a single one of your assertions. Not one.

”Witness testimony has been repeatedly demonstrated to be unreliable.”

Yes, indeed. So has science, which always is argued from two opposite sides in courtrooms. Science makes no truth claims, counter to what you think. It always produces contingent factoids that are subject to subsequent falsification and better testing / understanding.

”The claim that "random bit of news, often backed up with video footage" is somehow on equal level with supernatural claims is preposterous.”

This declarative statement, like all your others, comes without any empirical validation. Unless you provide empirical data, the assertion is empty.

”Provide an EXAMPLE of what you would consider to be valid evidence disproving the existence of such things.”

Because you “know” they are false, you harbor beliefs that are not accompanied by empirical knowledge of their falseness. Your beliefs are not rational, then, having no knowledge base for their support. From a rational point of view, however, agnosticism on those things that cannot be proven is justified. Requiring a disproof of what cannot be disproven is just as irrational as believing it, unless it is personally experienced.
(continued)

Stan said...

(continued from above)
”You are now saying that both rational argument and physical evidence are category errors? Ok, we're done.”

First, I am asking if you reject your initial position that empirical knowledge is the only knowledge. If you do not reject that opinion, then for your worldview, rational argument is either non-valid, being empty of knowledge, or it is empirical knowledge. If argument is non-valid, then arguments contain no knowledge and are futile. If it is empirical knowledge, then it is a category error, under the same conditions originally explained. It all hinges on whether you stand by your definition of knowledge.

”By DEFINITION your description of GOD is CONTRADICTORY. Thus by DEFINITION your God is INCOHERENT (breaks the Law of Non-Contradiction) and thus DOES NOT EXIST. This statement is TRUE BY DEFINITION.”

You just told me that I haven’t defined God well enough for you to refute. Now you say the description is contradictory without saying which parts contradict each other. (there is no internal non-coherence, but give it a shot, it’s good practice). And by saying that it is contradictory by definition without using any definition statement (where/why/how is God defined as contradictory?), you invalidate your entire statement. If your statement has merit, then provide the back-up that is required to support it. What contradicts what?

I certainly see that any definition of God contradicts what you believe you know. But you have given no empirical evidence (knowledge) for the things you think you know. Assuming that you would give us any evidence of the type necessary to support your chain of claims if you had it, it is easy to presume that you do not have such evidence, nor are you able to get it.

”You are telling me that pointing out your god is a logical contradiction is a category error. Unbelievable.

And I'm the ideologue? Laughable.”


Yes, and yes, unless you provide empirical proof (knowledge) of your beliefs and worldview, then you are the ideologue, living within the following contradiction:

You demand empirical knowledge for beliefs – yet you have no empirical knowledge to support your own beliefs.

That is what an internal contradiction looks like.

Contradictions do not exist by virtue of definition as you seem to think. Contradictions occur during fallacious thinking. This means that they are demonstrable, as I have just shown you. You, on the other hand, seem to think that declaring something contradictory (by definition, no less) without demonstration of the contradictory elements is sufficient to appear logical. Sorry. Logic doesn’t work that way.

Andrew said...

You continue to caricature my position and assign to me a viewpoint I did not claim.

I have repeatedly said that I would accept a rational argument for the existence of God. Your insistence on holding my arguments to empirical evidence is dishonest. Particularly once instances of empirical evidence is presented, you cry about category errors.

I said obtaining a definition of God was like pulling teeth. Really Stan, address my arguments rather than setting up strawmen to knock down.

So not only do you think god is powerful, uncaused cause that created the universe, but apparently he informs and cares about you as well. I ask that you substantiate the latter so that I may actually address the claim of Theism.

Having two categories of existence which are exclusive of each other, you yet claim to be aware of the super-natural. I ask only that you substantiate your claim without contradicting your premise.


This comprises YOUR definition of God. You've had days to clarify your position and have not done so, only obfuscate by insisting that I provide empirical evidence to falsify every miracle ever. When what I said is:

Stan, if you really want me to attempt to demonstrate how miracle claims at Lourdes and in the bible are untenable and contradict what can be observed and inferred by natural processes I will, but it's enough of a topic to warrant its own thread.


And it continues to be so...

If you, after accepting the information presented regarding the aforementioned miracles you still think them tenable, I think you have paltry standards of evidence and I see no reason why you do not also accept the existence of every supernatural claim.

I would also appreciate an EXAMPLE (it can be obviously false such as my alien example) of the type of evidence you would accept for the disproof of God.

You cannot discuss atheism without talking about theism. Again you demonstrate your ignorance as to what atheism is. Reading through your blog, it appears many experienced atheists also agree.

In classical logic, a contradiction consists of a logical incompatibility between two or more propositions. It occurs when the propositions, taken together, yield two conclusions which form the logical, usually opposite inversions of each other. Illustrating a general tendency in applied logic, Aristotle’s law of noncontradiction states that “One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time.”

Claiming God is Knowable and not-knowable simultaneously is a contradiction according to the definitions of Knowable, not-, contradiction and God.

”By DEFINITION your description of GOD is CONTRADICTORY. Thus by DEFINITION your God is INCOHERENT (breaks the Law of Non-Contradiction) and thus DOES NOT EXIST. This statement is TRUE BY DEFINITION.”

You also claim that he does not interact with the world (as there is no physical evidence of him, which you admit), yet claim he interacts with you. Again, you are wrong from every angle.

Requiring a disproof of what cannot be disproven is just as irrational as believing it, unless it is personally experienced.

So unless I personally experience God, I am justified in non-belief? And requiring a disproof is equally as irrational as believing it? Stan you are arguing my position for me more eloquently than I possibly could. Thank you. Is this the non-material evidence you are looking for that proves atheism is valid?

Because I AGREE!!!

And do you not agree that another's personal experience is in no way convincing of their truth claims? Which is likely why you don't accept the claim that Allah, Brahma, Ganesha and the millions of other gods throughout history actually exist.

"Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe." John 4:48

Stan said...

I have asked you to verify your position on empirical knowledge, but you never do; instead you claim strawman and caricature. So let’s list what we know of your position and you can correct whatever needs it.

1. You are an Atheist. By natural extension, then you are a philosophical materialist, since one always goes with the other.

2. You responded to a request for Atheists to empirically prove that there is no God.

3. You refuse to do #2.

4. You claimed that knowledge only comes from empiricism.

5. You wish to refute only a theist God, not a deist God.

6. You claim that Atheism refers specifically only to theism, and is not referring to deism:
”You cannot discuss atheism without talking about theism.” This is patently false; if there were no theism, Atheism would still exist to try to refute deism. Atheism rejects deity. Theism is a second order concept of deity. You cannot refute or accept theism without first addressing deity. You continue to refuse to address this honestly.

7. You asked for a definition of God, which I gave you, and which you don’t like.

8. You claim that your assertions are true by definition.

9. In your most recent comment, you refer to exclusive domains as my definition of God, ignoring the prior definitions I gave you.

10. You claimed that there are no unrefuted miracles; then you found 67; now you don’t want to discuss them.
(continued)

Stan said...

(Continued from above)
11. Regarding #4, you now wish to address arguments without any regard for empiricism (apparently, I’m not sure).

12. You continually make charges without specifics to back them up. For example, you claim dishonesty on my part for holding you to item #4, which you do not deny believing, even though promoting a contradictory form of knowledge (argumentation). Despite being asked about your position on #4, you do not make clear what you believe about it.

13. You attribute “sayings” to me that I have never said. Example: ” Claiming God is Knowable and not-knowable simultaneously is a contradiction according to the definitions of Knowable, not-, contradiction and God.” I have never said that God is knowable and not-knowable. Never. And this: ” You also claim that he does not interact with the world (as there is no physical evidence of him, which you admit), yet claim he interacts with you. Again, you are wrong from every angle.” I made no such claim as you put words in my mouth: my claim is that you cannot prove that there is no miracle, no personal interaction, nor can I prove that there is. It is neither provable nor falsifiable.
14. Your statement, ” So unless I personally experience God, I am justified in non-belief? And requiring a disproof is equally as irrational as believing it? Stan you are arguing my position for me more eloquently than I possibly could. Thank you. Is this the non-material evidence you are looking for that proves atheism is valid?” There is not, and will not be, an argument that will persuade the anti-deist, anti-theist, anti-ecclesiast, of the existence of a deity. Nor is there any argument that disproves same. Your pursuit is futile except in the sense that it is predestined, designed, to give you the answer you want. You will believe exactly what you want to believe in the rational absence of what you claim to seek. If you can only accept material claims, or if you insist on slam-dunk arguments, you will ultimately be self-guided back to philosophical materialism; you are currently satisfied with philosophical materialism, despite its lack of proof, either empirically or argumentatively. You have devised an argument that rationalizes in favor of philosophical materialism, and you will be happy with the outcome because it is deterministic.

15. ”And do you not agree that another's personal experience is in no way convincing of their truth claims?” I for one make no truth claims. I refute Atheism as a logically valid ideology and worldview. What I said was that if you wish to refute a coherent God, then do it, which you haven't. And I told you of my own experience, which you reject without a shred of evidence against it. So be it.

16. You have not taken a firm position against #4, so you should be held to empirical standards. You have provided no empirical data in support of any of your claims.

17. Should you reject your earlier position on #4, you are open to all sorts of claims for valid knowledge, so beware. If you do not reject your earlier position on #4, then empirical data is required for any and all declarations you make. This is your conundrum, no one else’s.

18. So which is it? Yes on 4? No on 4? Clear it up for us.

19. When it comes to Ganesha, Brahma, et al, I am not forced to make a decision, except out of coherence.

20. Which reminds me, Prove there is no coherent first cause.

Andrew said...

1. Yes I am an Atheist. I do not live my life as if a god exists because none can be demonstrated to exist. Gods belong in the same category as every other imaginary, supernatural characters.

Without argument or evidence to the contrary, my position is valid. You apparently agree.

Requiring a disproof of what cannot be disproven is just as irrational as believing it, unless it is personally experienced.

2. When claiming that all material evidence points to natural causes, you cry category error.

It is a category error to demand a physical proof for a nonphysical entity.

You demand empirical evidence yet invalidate it as a category error.

3. Yes I have, repeatedly. If my claim is that my pocket is empty, my empty pocket is indeed empirical evidence that my pocket is empty. By pointing out that every mystery ever solved has turned out to not require a god hypothesis, I point out that the world appears empty of gods. I have repeatedly stated that this is not proof, but nor is it proof that fairies do not exist.

4. I do not believe I have ever claimed this. I have repeatedly stated that a rational argument would convince me. Although when using a rational argument to convince you, you cry category error again. It's laughable.

5. As a deistic god does not interact with the world, any claims of its nature are inherently unknowable. I find it pointless to debate its existence. If you call a quantum fart god, you are welcome to it. I have said this before as well.

6. You have claimed that deism is not the position that you hold. Why insist I invalidate it? It's pretty much impossible to invalidate without invoking Hawking or another physicist who can only claim (like Laplace) that god is not required to complete their hypothesis. You then cry "Argument from Authority" despite as Martin pointed out above that it is perfectly reasonable to call upon proper authorities in their area of expertise.

7. You definition of god amounts to a quantum fart. Literally. It's very powerful, it comes from what is commonly described as "nothing" and is a coherent first cause. This is the god you want disproved? This is not the god you believe in. If you call this god, you win. I agree god exists. Why you call it god and conflate it with the intelligent characters that are said to influence humanity is beyond me. No, more likely it is to obfuscate the issue.

8. Yes I should have made the context surrounding that clear. Oh wait, I did in my second post. Do try and keep up.

9. Yes I am interested in a theistic god. I did not ignore your prior definitions, I referenced what you claimed about god previously to expand your definition, using your own claims. You have said you do not believe in a deistic god, you can do the explaining as to why you don't find that claim convincing.

You have repeatedly claimed exclusive domains. Every time you call category error (a lot!) you reinforce that viewpoint.

Andrew said...

16. I have provided a lot of reasonable arguments. This falls clearly into the standards of evidence I claim for myself. Need I repeat it again?

A rational argument would be convincing.

17. Groan. Ooh I'm aware. Bombard me with your rational arguments!

18.
My "proof" that your argument is unsound is that there is simply no evidence or rational argument to support it.
Oct. 1

I've put forward my arguments in the spirit of honest debate. And if you provide compelling reasons for me to personally change my mind I will.
Oct. 1

I don't deal in 'proofs'. I'm just looking for a rational reason.
Oct. 4

Instead of linking me to all these other people arguments, could you maybe just give me what you think is your strongest, most convincing argument?
Oct. 4

If there are two categories which are exclusive sets, and something exists in one set and not the other, then it is a category error to expect to find it in the second category where it does not exist.
oh wait, that's you again.

Demonstrate would include a rational argument. But yes, something tangible and demonstrable would be infinity more convincing.
Oct 25

I've said from the start that I would be convinced by a rational argument, which by your definition is non-material.
Nov 2


Does that clear it up? Maybe keep this in mind each time you are assuming my position and how easy it is for you to be wrong and to ascribe to me a position I do not hold. I would also go out on a limb and say that a rational argument would convince the majority of other atheists as well.

19. So would you say that you are an Atheist in respect to Ganesha, Brahma, etc? Should I then ask you for empiracal evidence to substantiate your position?

20. I believe in the coherent, powerful, first cause which created the universe. For expedience, I'll call it Quantum Fart, or QF for short.

It's sounds almost disrespectful if you think he talks to you too, to leave that bit out.
Are you sure you want to stick to that definition of god? I really don't think that's what atheists are arguing against, I know I'm not.

sonic said...

Stan- Andrew-
Please help me out here.
Earlier I presented an argument that nobody could prove there are no miracles -- even in the most strictly controlled experiments run in labs (much less what actually happens on the entire planet or in the entire universe).
Was my presentation poor?, Was the reasoning incorrect? Was the argument inane?
I ask because there is still discussion regarding miracles and proof or disproof.

Stan said...

1. ”Yes I am an Atheist. I do not live my life as if a god exists because none can be demonstrated to exist. Gods belong in the same category as every other imaginary, supernatural characters.

Without argument or evidence to the contrary, my position is valid. You apparently agree.

'Requiring a disproof of what cannot be disproven is just as irrational as believing it, unless it is personally experienced.'"


The quote you use means entirely opposite of what you want it to say. It means that you cannot rationally require disproof as a means of developing your own truth statement. It also means that you cannot prove that which you choose to believe. So what you believe is without either rational support, or empirical support; i.e. it is a religious belief. So from a materialist standpoint, it is unsupported and non-valid.

We are repeating the same stuff over and over; you keep using failed arguments yet claiming they are valid in the face of their fallacy.

”2. When claiming that all material evidence points to natural causes, you cry category error.

It is a category error to demand a physical proof for a nonphysical entity.

You demand empirical evidence yet invalidate it as a category error.”

No, your worldview and materialism plus your original statement puts you
in the position of requiring materialist evidence for nonmaterial entities. You are playing word games. You cannot win at this by twisting meanings.

3. Yes I have, repeatedly. If my claim is that my pocket is empty, my empty pocket is indeed empirical evidence that my pocket is empty. By pointing out that every mystery ever solved has turned out to not require a god hypothesis, I point out that the world appears empty of gods. I have repeatedly stated that this is not proof, but nor is it proof that fairies do not exist.

And the challenge was for materialist proof of a materialist claim: prove empirically that there is no God; otherwise you believe things you cannot prove using the standard materialist requirement, and are engaged in a religion of faith-without-proof. You have not done this, and you have not accepted the challenge, and you want to bluff your way out of it with the ridiculous statement regarding "every mystery ever solved”, when the mystery we are talking about has not been solved, as is the case with a great many other mysteries. You want an oblique statement to serve as your truth statement but you want material proof (or a congenial, non-materialist argument) from others. The absence of which you intend to serve as your truth statement, an irrational goal.

”4. I do not believe I have ever claimed this. I have repeatedly stated that a rational argument would convince me. Although when using a rational argument to convince you, you cry category error again. It's laughable.”
You argued this at some length with someone else on this blog (sonic?) Your position was rigid.

(cont. below)

Stan said...

"5. As a deistic god does not interact with the world, any claims of its nature are inherently unknowable. I find it pointless to debate its existence. If you call a quantum fart god, you are welcome to it. I have said this before as well."

If you cannot prove conclusively that there is no deity, then you cannot prove conclusively that there is no deity that forms relationships. If you could, you would have by now. You cannot do it. You believe in something you cannot prove and have no evidence to support. It is a purely religious belief, comprised of untenable truth statements that you choose, without any support that even approaches either rational or empirical validation.

And I have said before that the quantum theory is untenable, using current quantum mechanics: Here are two main reasons it is locked out:

(a) Quantum creation occurs within a pre-existing quantum field, producing anti-particle correlates to the particles. There is no correlation between this phenomenon and the claim that the origin of the universe created mass/energy/space/time on the one hand, and gravity on the other hand. Gravity is in no way the correlate of an anti-particle. (b) The quantum field creation of particle/anti-particle produces a destructive pair, wherein the particle and anti-particle recombine, annihilating each other. Mass/energy/space/time are not annihilated by gravity; in fact, gravity is a physical characteristic of mass, not an antithesis to it.

The preexistence of a quantum field absolutely nullifies Hawkings claim of the universe coming from "nothing". That claim is a religious claim, based on false quantum science.

However, as in all things, you will believe what you want, and obviously you will believe it with no critical thought applied to it whatsoever.

"6. You have claimed that deism is not the position that you hold. Why insist I invalidate it? It's pretty much impossible to invalidate without invoking Hawking or another physicist who can only claim (like Laplace) that god is not required to complete their hypothesis. You then cry "Argument from Authority" despite as Martin pointed out above that it is perfectly reasonable to call upon proper authorities in their area of expertise."

Unlike Laplace, Hawking is pimping an irrational, non-empirical, fantasy. Laplace merely applied mathematics in order to model the physical orbits being observed. Laplace was modeling a physical entity.

Hawking is making false quantum statements. Neither one is qualified to state that there “categorically is no God, based on empirical data”. That in fact, is your challenge: support your belief.

"7. You definition of god amounts to a quantum fart. Literally. It's very powerful, it comes from what is commonly described as "nothing" and is a coherent first cause. This is the god you want disproved? This is not the god you believe in. If you call this god, you win. I agree god exists. Why you call it god and conflate it with the intelligent characters that are said to influence humanity is beyond me. No, more likely it is to obfuscate the issue.

I will answer this and stop at this point. You continually spout b.s. and expect somehow to make a truth statement from it. You never ever support your materialism with materialist proof.
I told you time and again what it is that I see that can be known about a deity. Your solution is to belittle that, with absolutely no evidence to support your claims other than snark, which is the Atheist substitute for substance.

You just go on and on, like a psychotic dog that cannot stop chasing cars but never ever catches one - fortunately, because actually catching one would kill it. If you choose to provide your materialist proof for your belief in materialism, then do it. Otherwise, I am done with you.

Stan said...

"5. As a deistic god does not interact with the world, any claims of its nature are inherently unknowable. I find it pointless to debate its existence. If you call a quantum fart god, you are welcome to it. I have said this before as well."

If you cannot prove conclusively that there is no deity, then you cannot prove conclusively that there is no deity that forms relationships. If you could, you would have by now. You cannot do it. You believe in something you cannot prove and have no evidence to support. It is a purely religious belief, comprised of untenable truth statements that you choose, without any support that even approaches either rational or empirical validation.

And I have said before that the quantum theory is untenable, using current quantum mechanics: Here are two main reasons it is locked out:

(a) Quantum creation occurs within a pre-existing quantum field, producing anti-particle correlates to the particles. There is no correlation between this phenomenon and the claim that the origin of the universe created mass/energy/space/time on the one hand, and gravity on the other hand. Gravity is in no way the correlate of an anti-particle. (b) The quantum field creation of particle/anti-particle produces a destructive pair, wherein the particle and anti-particle recombine, annihilating each other. Mass/energy/space/time are not annihilated by gravity; in fact, gravity is a physical characteristic of mass, not an antithesis to it.

The preexistence of a quantum field absolutely nullifies Hawkings claim of the universe coming from "nothing". That claim is a religious claim, based on false quantum science.

However, as in all things, you will believe what you want, and obviously you will believe it with no critical thought applied to it whatsoever.

"6. You have claimed that deism is not the position that you hold. Why insist I invalidate it? It's pretty much impossible to invalidate without invoking Hawking or another physicist who can only claim (like Laplace) that god is not required to complete their hypothesis. You then cry "Argument from Authority" despite as Martin pointed out above that it is perfectly reasonable to call upon proper authorities in their area of expertise."

Unlike Laplace, Hawking is pimping an irrational, non-empirical, fantasy. Laplace merely applied mathematics in order to model the physical orbits being observed. Laplace was modeling a physical entity.

Hawking is making false quantum statements. Neither one is qualified to state that there “categorically is no God, based on empirical data”. That in fact, is your challenge: support your belief.

"7. You definition of god amounts to a quantum fart. Literally. It's very powerful, it comes from what is commonly described as "nothing" and is a coherent first cause. This is the god you want disproved? This is not the god you believe in. If you call this god, you win. I agree god exists. Why you call it god and conflate it with the intelligent characters that are said to influence humanity is beyond me. No, more likely it is to obfuscate the issue.

I will answer this and stop at this point. You continually spout b.s. and expect somehow to make a truth statement from it. You never ever support your materialism with materialist proof.
I told you time and again what it is that I see that can be known about a deity. Your solution is to belittle that, with absolutely no evidence to support your claims other than snark, which is the Atheist substitute for substance.

You just go on and on, like a psychotic dog that cannot stop chasing cars but never ever catches one - fortunately, because actually catching one would kill it. If you choose to provide your materialist proof for your belief in materialism, then do it. Otherwise, I am done with you.

Andrew said...

Sonic,

No, I think I agreed with you in principle. However just because there has not been a disproof of something is not a reason to accept the existence of said thing.

If fairies cannot be disproven, should you then accept their existence? Do I require material evidence of the non-existence of fairies in order to be justified in disbelief?

Stan,

It's hard to have a coherent conversation with you because you list off so many points that require comment. And then we seem to get bogged down in the technicalities.

Hawking didn't say "there is no god", he said, like Laplace, that "God is not required". For all your claims that he is lying and your misquoting him, you must admit that if he had reached the opposite conclusion "God IS required to start the universe", he would have sold a LOT more books.

Many other physicists agree with him on this point, if not the theory in specifics. Something like 90% of physicists are not theists. Again, watch Lawrence Kraus' "A Universe From Nothing". He actually details what physicist mean by "nothing".

Give me an example of materialistic evidence you would accept for the non-existence of fairies (or gods). What I continue to promote is derided and so I again ask for your clarification as to what you would accept. An example, not a description.

People claim that fairies exist. Do I require physical evidence of the non-existence of fairies in order to support an a-fairiest position?

Thanks for calling me a psychotic dog btw, but I think it more likely should I catch this particular car, it would kill you, or at least your world view .. which may be why you are speeding away so fast. I'm not the one with the 20 point list .. I just responded to yours.

After all, you did say should I accept rational arguments (which I believe I made brick-smashing-in-the-face clear that I do) to beware because I'm now open to all sorts of claims of valid knowledge. I eagerly await your rational arguments... As you speed away from presenting them.

I would also appreciate you posting my #10-15 responses. I don't really care if you respond directly to them, but I wouldn't want anyone to think I was ducking a challenge, and they may find my responses interesting or clarifying.

sonic said...

It seems there is no God because all the mysteries can be explained by 'spontaneous creation.'
I like that.

Stan said...

“Hawking didn't say "there is no god", he said, like Laplace, that "God is not required". For all your claims that he is lying and your misquoting him, you must admit that if he had reached the opposite conclusion "God IS required to start the universe", he would have sold a LOT more books.”

The purpose of the book was blatantly obvious: it is a religious tome based in speculative scientism, most of which is faulty. It has one purpose (not science): to eliminate God, using big words of science. The book attacks religion throughout, unlike any other book on actual science. The religious conclusion is the same as yours – there is no materialist evidence for a deity. But conclusions, even religious conclusions, which are based on faulty premises cannot be valid. When he cleans up his premises, then he will have a valid case but probably not the same one. Hawking still produces the most sold, unread books on scientism as refutation of deity. And unscrutinized by the Atheist true believers.

I never said he is lying, I said he has misused existing quantum mechanics theory in his theory of the cosmos. His position will be refuted when others screw up enough courage to go against him; his former partner, the physicist Roger Penrose, has refuted his theories.

”Something like 90% of physicists are not theists.”

Proving what? 90% of scientists have been wrong many times before.
(continued)

Stan said...

(continued from above)

”Give me an example of materialistic evidence you would accept for the non-existence of fairies (or gods). What I continue to promote is derided and so I again ask for your clarification as to what you would accept. An example, not a description.”

Please read this and file it away; I have said this over and over. There is no material, empirical evidence that can disprove fairies, orbiting pink unicorn bigfoot FSM’s, or any other negation. From a logic standpoint, only agnosticism is justified in the absolute impossibility of evidence proving non-existence.

From a practical standpoint, there is material, empirical evidence that there was a big bang. There is evidence that every effect is accompanied by a cause that is larger (more powerful), more inclusive, necessary and sufficient to produce the effect. Hence, a universe containing, say, intelligence, logically requires a cause that also contains intelligence. Denial of that deduction means that one or more of the above conditions must be denied. But denying that also undermines the foundations of empiricism, which depends on the consistency of Cause and Effect for its experimental conclusions.

Also from a practical standpoint, it is obvious that FSM’s and orbiting teapots are human creations, specifically designed to function as strawmen, to be knocked down. As for natural phenomena claims, only agnosticism is justified, possibly forever, as no evidence continues to turn up, forever.

”People claim that fairies exist. Do I require physical evidence of the non-existence of fairies in order to support an a-fairiest position?

Assuming by “a-fairiest” you mean that there absolutely are no fairies: If you are a materialist, yes, because all materialist positions are claimed to be based on evidence. Bertrand Russell declared: ”We must have evidence in order to believe a thing”. Of course Russell was referring to “religion”, or at least his caricature of religion. He never applied that condition to his own positions, none of which had evidence to support them – philosophy is mental rumination that addresses subjects that empiricism cannot address. Since a materialist, by definition of the term, requires material proof, and no material proof is forthcoming either way, for or against, then the subject is without resolution, and its validity is technically unknown. If you choose the absolutist position against the existence of fairies, which you may do if you wish, you do it without material evidence to support your case.

If you choose the absolutist stance, without material evidence to support your position, then technically you are operating outside of Philosophical Materialism; and Atheism is in the same conundrum, believing something that it cannot garner physical evidence to prove, thereby being a religious stance, not a scientific, empirically proven hypothesis.

”…dog…”

I apologize for the dog analogy, it was uncalled for. My rural internet is sketchy and I tried to get in and erase that comment, but I couldn’t get on. Now it is in to stay I’m sorry to say.

”I would also appreciate you posting my #10-15 responses.”

OK, next comment.

Stan said...

Andrew, I never received your comments 10 through 15, I hope you saved them for reposting. If you send them again, I will respond.

Also, I recommend that you google "prove a negative"; there is much about this which is available. Keep in mind that materialism (Atheism is materialist) requires material evidence.

sonic said...

Andrew-
Thank-you for the reply.
I doubt that using Hawkings to back the case for Atheism makes much sense.
Atheism existed before Hawkings, so if Hawkings is proof, then you have to argue that Atheism was a religion up to the time of Hawkings book. Ya know??

Andrew said...

10. The point is that there are likely millions of claims that would fall into the category of a 'miracle' and not a single one that I'm aware of comes even close to being considered authentic. And yes, I've looked. It's simply the sheer weight of the falsified claims and the complete lack of authenticated claims that has brought me to my position.

This is what you jumped all over. I wasn't even talking to you.
Authentic would mean to me, at a minimum, that the majority of third party investigations have determined the miracle claim conclusive or that the miracle claim is the best explanation possible. I am not aware that any exist. I am not aware of a falsification for Lourdes, however considering that the claim of those 67 cases is that Lourdes possesses healing waters, and considering that the those miracles are such that might have occurred via natural causes, and considering that the success rate of miracles (miracles with likely naturalistic explanations no doubt) is around 67/200 000 000, I think my position is sound. With 200 000 000 hits, surely several will recover naturally without divine intervention. It's not like the claim is that the heavens opened up and they were struck by holy light .. they just got better .. often after leaving Lourdes.

Do you think I am being unreasonable? Or are you just going to point out that I present no empirical evidence?

11. Again, I never claimed that and have repeatedly stated that a rational argument would be convincing. Oh wait, are you not also saying that rational arguments are a category error? Please clarify. Yes it is true that one thing I that will not change my mind is your witnessing.

12. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

A rational argument would be convincing.

Because I have said this so many times, I thought for sure it was clear.

(note: edited to be slightly less provocative)

Andrew said...

13. Stan says:

Do you not see that "super-natural is outside of natural? It is a separate category. The name and the category were created to accommodate things that are not natural (not within the category called "natural"). Hence they are in a separate category, which we call "super"-natural. Two categories, exclusive of each other.

You do indeed make that claim, directly as shown above, and indirectly each time you cry category error.

Your claim that an interaction occurs:

But not until I was humble enough to be spoken to and to accept it for what it was. It took me 40 years to quit telling God who he was and to accept the humble listening part, and even then the process took time; here’s why: Humility is not something that one gains by pursuing it.

Violates your premise of exclusive categories. It also makes crystal clear that you believe in a theistic god, which you have no intention of supporting through argument, only via declaration of experience (ie: witnessing). A method you agree is irrational grounds to accept a claim.

14. Sure there is. You show me that it works, and how it works and I'll believe you. Y'know, like everything else you accept as fact.

Of course I am going to reject arguments without rational. Of course I want the arguments in favour of god to be convincing. I hardly think this is a point against me.

15. Of course you do. You claim God talks to you. You claim he desires a relationship with you. You claim that he exists. You claim that he exists in a super natural realm. You claim the natural realm and the super natural realm are exclusive. You claim that deism is no more logical than atheism. You claim I must refute deism to maintain coherently my claim to be an atheist. You make a lot of claims.

Andrew said...

Sonic,

Thanks. It seems to be the most reasonable position to me.

Stan,

Thanks for the honest responses.

Re: Hawking. I don't think we are going to agree on this one. I have read some Penrose and although I know he disagrees with Hawking on some aspects, I don't think he has ever said that he is misrepresenting (which sounds a lot like lying) or ideologically driven. Also, if one could demonstrate Hawking is wrong .. you'd have your reputation made. Why someone would hold back on that seems very odd. Science works in part b/c it can be falsified. Falsifying theories is half the job.

Please read this and file it away; I have said this over and over. There is no material, empirical evidence that can disprove fairies, orbiting pink unicorn bigfoot FSM’s, or any other negation. From a logic standpoint, only agnosticism is justified in the absolute impossibility of evidence proving non-existence.

I do agree, and have stated as much before. This is why the preponderance of the burden of proof lies with the theist. Your original challenge is basically a trick question. I stated very early on in the conversation that it was impossible to prove that something that someone might call god does not exist anywhere, only that it is reasonable to act as though god does not exist. And most certainly it is unreasonable to burden yourself with the god image that most theist carry.

You are correct in stating that agnosticism is the only justifiable position, and I agree. However if you acts as though such beings do not exist (while not discounting the minuscule possibility, a proper scientific position), you are still in effect an atheist. A 6.9 on Dawkins' 1-7 scale. By this definition I am an agnostic atheist.

I think if the preponderance of theist believed in god as you describe him, no one would even care. But people use their god belief to justify anything and everything. Not everyone of course, most theists are great people. God always agrees with you, or them. They do not apply the same logic to god that you do.

Andrew said...

It does seem obvious to me that gods are a human creation too.

Assuming by “a-fairiest” you mean that there absolutely are no fairies

No, I mean am I justified in the position that it is reasonable to act as though fairies do not exist?

I believe Russel is referring to a positive claim, not just religious claims..

You seem to be arguing against a fanatical atheistic position. An extreme caricature .. like painting all theists like the Westbourough Baptist church. I am merely arguing for what I see as being the most reasonable position, certainly not one that requires material evidence for the disproof of something. That's just a logical impossibility (disregarding absence of evidence where evidence is to be expected.)

I am not arguing for philosophical materialism, but for atheism (definition at the top). I'm not even that familiar with philosophical materialism and would certainly agree that to expect material evidence of the absence of anything is preposterous. However I must stress that this is in no way a convincing argument that such a thing exists. "Bertrand Russell declared: ”We must have evidence in order to believe a thing”."

Hence, a universe containing, say, intelligence, logically requires a cause that also contains intelligence ...

Who's cause would then also logically require a cause that also contains intelligence. I'm pretty sure this is creating an Infinite Regress and using Special Pleading to escape it. This is a great point to expand on.

Really, you should watch that Lawrence Kraus video. It's a bit long but very good.

You are confirming that intelligence is included in your god definition?

Andrew said...

Appreciate the apology, and I'll respond by saying that referring to your god description as a quantum fart was a pretty disrespectful way to put it and apologize for being provocative myself.

I'll break up the 10-15 comments to make sure they get through. Apologies in advance for any snarky comments, I much prefer this discussional tone to the ha! gotcha back and forth.

Sonic,

Hawking is only brought up as an expert on physics to have an authority to declare that "God is not required", in the very same vein of Laplace. And every other physicist I've quoted seems to agree with Hawking.

Atheism has existed about a minute less than theism I think. Just the time it takes for a theist to declare "God X Y Z", and the atheist to respond "That doesn't really make sense". Epicurus is a good example. Atheism is a religeon in the manner that bald is a hair colour, or that not-collecting stamps is a hobby.

Sorry for the barrage of posts!

Stan said...

Andrew said,
”Also, if one could demonstrate Hawking is wrong .. you'd have your reputation made. Why someone would hold back on that seems very odd. Science works in part b/c it can be falsified. Falsifying theories is half the job.”

It’s not odd at all. Hawking’s hypothesis cannot be falsified because it cannot be tested; so it is not empirically justified, nor is it based on actual, known functionality of quantum mechanics. Call it what you wish, it is not an accurate representation of anything other than a desire to substantiate Atheism with a scientistic pretense. It is first up to the person who generates an hypothesis to also generate a substantiation. Hawking cannot and will not do that.

Popper’s criterion of falsification means that an hypothesis that has no capacity for being false cannot be a source of knowledge, because all tests will always show up as valid because they cannot do otherwise; this makes the hypothesis outside the bounds of empiricism: supernatural.

”I stated very early on in the conversation that it was impossible to prove that something that someone might call god does not exist anywhere, only that it is reasonable to act as though god does not exist. And most certainly it is unreasonable to burden yourself with the god image that most theist carry.”

How does a person “ act as though god does not exist”? Is there an Atheist behavior set that differs from theist behaviors? If so in what manner?

”By this definition I am an agnostic atheist.”

On Dawkins’ scale, where are the breakpoints, and what labels/nomenclature do they define? Dawkins’ behavior belies his statements; when he is pressed to prove his belief – which he cannot – he resorts to his scale. But his complete hatred of religion / god / other dissent places him firmly in the total rejection box: hardcore Atheist.

In terms of traditional definitions (not Dawkins’ obscurances) Atheism means “a belief that there is no deity”, while agnosticism means “ there is insufficient evidence to demonstrate the existence of a deity”. These things are exclusive, so that the combination of the terms, Atheist and agnostic, is not a logical combo.

”Your original challenge is basically a trick question.”

Not so, no more than the demand at sandwalk for a proof (empirical, no less) of the existence of a deity. The theist position is specifically a religious, non-empirical position; the Atheist position is a Philosophical Materialist, empirical position. It is perfectly reasonable to require that Philosophical Materialist – empiricists provide a material-empirical validation of their position: they claim that need for validation of theism (which does not make material-empirical claims); It is not reasonable to require theists to provide a material-empirical validation since their claims are not material or empirical.

By refusing to adhere to their own criterion, Philosophical Materialist – Atheists show that their position is untenable logically and empirically, and is thus a religious position which they hold without any validating evidence to show in support.

”I think if the preponderance of theist believed in god as you describe him, no one would even care.”

What I have shown is the minimum set of necessary and sufficient conditions which justify the position that a creating being exists, one that forms personal relationships; this position is individually deduced, not a law of the physical universe (the creation, not the creator). As such it may be rejected by those who require laws of the universe for all knowledge.

Stan said...

” ‘Assuming by “a-fairiest” you mean that there absolutely are no fairies’.

No, I mean am I justified in the position that it is reasonable to act as though fairies do not exist?

I believe Russel is referring to a positive claim, not just religious claims..”


First off, Russell made the statement in his virulent speech, “Why I Am Not A Christian”, and his paper of the same name: specifically religiously oriented. Russell was anti-ecclesiastic, and confused ecclesiasticism with the necessary and sufficient conditions for the existence of a creating deity – which, to my knowledge, he never addressed. He harbored a seething hatred for theists, and rejected theism because he hated theists.

The impact of the existence/non-existence of fairies is negligible; your behavior would be the same either way. As a comparison to the proposed existence of a caring deity, the use of fairies as an analog is very weak. However, to answer your question directly, since there is no impact either way, then behaving as though fairies do not exist is warranted; however, this position is not exclusive to an a-fairist, it also applies to a fairy-agnostic, so it cannot be used as a justification for a-fairism.

” You seem to be arguing against a fanatical atheistic position. An extreme caricature ..”

Which arguments are you referring to?

”I am not arguing for philosophical materialism, but for atheism (definition at the top). I'm not even that familiar with philosophical materialism and would certainly agree that to expect material evidence of the absence of anything is preposterous. However I must stress that this is in no way a convincing argument that such a thing exists. "Bertrand Russell declared: ”We must have evidence in order to believe a thing”."

Again, Atheism presupposes Philosophical Materialism. And, I make no argument with the intent of convincing anyone of the existence of a deity. What I do here, as I have explained before, is to illuminate the rational fallacies inherent in Atheism. Atheism is false on every facet. But deism or theism are not justified by argumentation or replicable experimentation, and are therefore personal, internally justified and experienced. Because of that, they are not empirical or material, nor are they falsifiable using those constraints.

Stan said...

”Also, if one could demonstrate Hawking is wrong .. you'd have your reputation made. Why someone would hold back on that seems very odd. Science works in part b/c it can be falsified. Falsifying theories is half the job.”

It’s not odd at all. Hawking’s hypothesis cannot be falsified because it cannot be tested; it is not empirically justified, nor is it based on actual, known functionality of quantum mechanics. Call it what you wish, it is not an accurate representation of anything other than a desire to substantiate Atheism. It is first up to the person who generates an hypothesis to also generate a substantiation. Popper’s criterion of falsification means that an hypothesis that has no capacity for being false cannot be a source of knowledge because all tests will always show up as valid, and this makes the hypothesis outside the bounds of empiricism: supernatural.

”I stated very early on in the conversation that it was impossible to prove that something that someone might call god does not exist anywhere, only that it is reasonable to act as though god does not exist. And most certainly it is unreasonable to burden yourself with the god image that most theist carry.”

How does a person “ act as though god does not exist”? Is there an Atheist behavior set that differs from theist behaviors? If so in what manner?

”By this definition I am an agnostic atheist.”

On Dawkins’ scale, where are the breakpoints, and what labels/nomenclature do they define? Dawkins’ behavior belies his statements; when he is pressed to prove his belief – which he cannot – he resorts to his scale. But his complete hatred of religion / god / other dissent places him firmly in the total rejection box: hardcore Atheist.

In terms of traditional definitions (not Dawkins’ obscurances) Atheism means “a belief that there is no deity”, while agnosticism means “ there is insufficient evidence to demonstrate the existence of a deity”. These things are exclusive, so that the combination of the terms, Atheist and agnostic, is not a logical combo.

”Your original challenge is basically a trick question.”

Not so, no more than the demand at sandwalk for a proof (empirical, no less) of the existence of a deity. The theist position is specifically a religious, non-empirical position; the Atheist position is a Philosophical Materialist, empirical position. It is perfectly reasonable to require that Philosophical Materialist – empiricists provide a material-empirical validation of their position: they claim that need for validation of theism (which does not make material-empirical claims); It is not reasonable to require theists to provide a material-empirical validation since their claims are not material or empirical.

By refusing to adhere to their own criterion, Philosophical Materialist – Atheists show that their position is untenable logically and empirically, and is thus a religious position which they hold without any validating evidence to show in support.

”I think if the preponderance of theist believed in god as you describe him, no one would even care.”

What I have shown is the minimum set of necessary and sufficient conditions which justify the position that a creating being exists, one that forms personal relationships; this position is individually deduced, not a law of the physical universe (the creation, not the creator). As such it may be rejected by those who require laws of the universe for all knowledge. But that rejection is based on an internal non-coherence, and is therefore not rational.

Stan said...

” ‘Assuming by “a-fairiest” you mean that there absolutely are no fairies’.

No, I mean am I justified in the position that it is reasonable to act as though fairies do not exist?

I believe Russel is referring to a positive claim, not just religious claims..”


First off, Russell made the statement in his virulent speech, “Why I Am Not A Christian”, and his paper of the same name: specifically religiously oriented. Russell was anti-ecclesiastic, and confused ecclesiasticism with the necessary and sufficient conditions for the existence of a creating deity – which, to my knowledge, he never addressed. He harbored a seething hatred for theists, and rejected theism because he hated theists.

The impact of the existence/non-existence of fairies is negligible; your behavior would be the same either way. As a comparison to the proposed existence of a caring deity, the use of fairies as an analog is very weak. However, to answer your question directly, since there is no impact either way, then behaving as though fairies do not exist is warranted; however, this position is not exclusive to an a-fairist, it also applies to a fairy-agnostic, so it cannot be used as a justification for a-fairism.

” You seem to be arguing against a fanatical atheistic position. An extreme caricature ..”

Which arguments are you referring to?

”I am not arguing for philosophical materialism, but for atheism (definition at the top). I'm not even that familiar with philosophical materialism and would certainly agree that to expect material evidence of the absence of anything is preposterous. However I must stress that this is in no way a convincing argument that such a thing exists. "Bertrand Russell declared: ”We must have evidence in order to believe a thing”."

Again, Atheism presupposed Philosophical Materialism. And, I make no argument with the intent of convincing anyone of the existence of a deity. What I do here, as I have explained before, is to illuminate the rational fallacies inherent in Atheism. Atheism is false on every facet. But deism or theism are not justified by argumentation or experimentation, and are therefore personal, internally justified and experienced. Because of that, they are not empirical or material, nor are they falsifiable using those constraints.

Stan said...

” ‘Hence, a universe containing, say, intelligence, logically requires a cause that also contains intelligence ... ‘

Who's cause would then also logically require a cause that also contains intelligence. I'm pretty sure this is creating an Infinite Regress and using Special Pleading to escape it. This is a great point to expand on.”


Cause and effect are time dependent, where the cause always precedes the effect in time. Time came into being at the Big Bang, so prior to the Big Bang there could be no (preceding) cause and (subsequent) effect as we know it. In the absence of time, and thus the absence of cause and effect, the idea of existence becomes that of timelessness and permanence, a concept that is outside human experience. Despite that, it can be seen that in timelessness, an infinite regression of prior cause/effects is not possible; a permanent existence is more logically justifiable.

Lawrence Kraus… I just today got high speed internet out here at the farm; I have a number of videos that I need to watch that I could not view before… I will try to watch Kraus’s soon.

”You are confirming that intelligence is included in your god definition?”

intelligence is a necessary secondary deduction, not a primary necessary-and-sufficient condition. What is necessary as a primary condition is coherence and the ability to create a coherent universe.

With respect to your comments to sonic,
”Atheism is a religeon in the manner that bald is a hair colour, or that not-collecting stamps is a hobby.”

This doesn’t hold up for the following reason: bald people do not reject the existence of hair; non-stamp-collectors do not reject the existence of stamps.

Analogies always… always… fail at some point. This is because the analog is not the same as the case being argued, and the difference contained within the analog will ultimately come into play, especially if the analogy is pressed to its limit, or if the analogy is weak to start with. Analogies are used to deflect the conversation off into the weeds, arguing the analog rather than the actual case.

I will try to answer your 10 –15 comments later today.

Andrew said...

Re: Hawking

Have you actually read the book? I have not so am only speaking in regards to the popular quotes "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

"We're not saying there is no God, we're saying there is no need for God to explain the universe," says Mlodinow. "The views in the book are scientific ones."

Should they not be scientific veiws, I would expect someone with a proper scientific view to point out the untenability of Hawking/Mlodinow statements. At the very least someone could point out where his math is wrong? And again, every other physicist I've heard speak on this has similar views.

Again I don't think we'll agree on this one, but at the very least he is a physicist, speaking on physics, and using him as a source is legitimate.

How does a person “ act as though god does not exist”? Is there an Atheist behavior set that differs from theist behaviors? If so in what manner?

Well .. I don't pretend to speak to him. I don't act as though I'm here on a special mission from him. I don't accept knowledge garnered through revelations. I don't feel bad about sleeping in on Sundays (or getting up early and doing yard work). Lots of stuff like that. A lot of "I don'ts"

If I think of God at all, it is in a wondering that people accept arguments for his existence, analysing those arguments and attempting to divine (bad pun I know) some coherence from them. And then pointing out how they are not coherent.

The only behaviour set I can think of that would apply to all atheists is that we derive our morality from a material source, not a divine one. Practically, we accept that we (as individuals and as a society) are the ones who decide what is right and wrong, that such concepts are subjective and that only through effort, consideration and trial and error can we reach a tenuous conclusion as to what is the "right" thing to do. This as opposed to theism where morality is mandated by divine fiat.

Andrew said...

Dawkins' Scale

1 Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know.'

2 Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there.'

3 Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. 'I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.'

4 Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.'

5 Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. 'I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical.'

6 Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

7 Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.'

It is by definition impossible for an atheist to "hate god", anymore than it is impossible for a grown-up to hate Santa Claus. However many atheists do indeed hate what god-beliefs creates. Ie: Westborough Baptists, creationists, faith as a virtue.

In terms of traditional definitions, atheism tends to mean "I do not believe in your god". Christians were once considered atheists in Rome. A fuller definition in my original post.
Agnosticism means "the truth value of certain claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims is unknown or unknowable."

It's a good point though.

Agnostisicm and -theism are actually not exlusive. Gnostisism points towards what you know, theism points towards what you believe.

I believe there are no gods, based upon what I currently know.

In defense of sandwalk, the challenge was " I challenge all theists and all their accommodationist friends to post their very best 21st century, sophisticated (or not), arguments for the existence of God.", this was in response to the oft paraded comment that "There are convincing, intelligent, sophisticated arguments for the existence of god."

I do not think that is a trick question.

Theists almost always make material claims about God. It is only when pressed to substantiate such claims that (in my experience) they revert to the position that God is unknowable, or to know you must first beleive, or that God exists outside space and time. It is reasonable to ask that theists substantiate these claims if we are supposed to accept them.

Atheism is not a positive claim. It is a rejection of a positive claim. You really are asking for material evidence of the non-existence of faries. It just doesn't make sense. I totally agree with that.. hah, like finding a rock that has carved into it "There is no God"? I could probably produce that :). Hm, are not atheists themselves material evidence of the non-existence of God? Serious question, no sarcasm.

Empiracally, yes I suppose the position is untenable as you cannot disprove with 100% certainty, well, anything. Logically however you simply do not require evidence that something does not exist.

Andrew said...

Dawkins' Scale

1 Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know.'

2 Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there.'

3 Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. 'I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.'

4 Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.'

5 Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. 'I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical.'

6 Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

7 Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.'

It is by definition impossible for an atheist to "hate god", anymore than it is impossible for a grown-up to hate Santa Claus. However many atheists do indeed hate what god-beliefs creates. Ie: Westborough Baptists, creationists, faith as a virtue.

In terms of traditional definitions, atheism tends to mean "I do not believe in your god". Christians were once considered atheists in Rome. A fuller definition in my original post.
Agnosticism means "the truth value of certain claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims is unknown or unknowable."

It's a good point though.

Agnostisicm and -theism are actually not exlusive. Gnostisism points towards what you know, theism points towards what you believe.

I believe there are no gods, based upon what I currently know.

Andrew said...

In defense of sandwalk, the challenge was " I challenge all theists and all their accommodationist friends to post their very best 21st century, sophisticated (or not), arguments for the existence of God.", this was in response to the oft paraded comment that "There are convincing, intelligent, sophisticated arguments for the existence of god."

I do not think that is a trick question.

Theists almost always make material claims about God. It is only when pressed to substantiate such claims that (in my experience) they revert to the position that God is unknowable, or to know you must first beleive, or that God exists outside space and time. It is reasonable to ask that theists substantiate these claims if we are supposed to accept them.

Atheism is not a positive claim. It is a rejection of a positive claim. You really are asking for material evidence of the non-existence of faries. It just doesn't make sense. I totally agree with that.. hah, like finding a rock that has carved into it "There is no God"? I could probably produce that :). Hm, are not atheists themselves material evidence of the non-existence of God? Serious question, no sarcasm.

Empiracally, yes I suppose the position is untenable as you cannot disprove with 100% certainty, well, anything. Logically however you simply do not require evidence that something does not exist.

Russel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aPOMUTr1qw
Great video.. He says he rejects Christianity because there "is simply not a shred of evidence to support it."

The impact of the existence/non-existence of fairies is negligible

I strongly disagree. There are people who do believe in faries and it does effect their actions. Belief in fairies was actually quite common in the previous century and their existence was often used to explain the unexplainable. So there would definetly be an impact there.

” You seem to be arguing against a fanatical atheistic position. An extreme caricature ..”

When you say stuff like

By refusing to adhere to their own criterion, Philosophical Materialist – Atheists show that their position is untenable logically and empirically, and is thus a religious position which they hold without any validating evidence to show in support.

You are defining their position as contradictory and then pointing out it is contradictory. Without acknowledging that this may actually not be their position. Philosphical Materialism seems to be what you are attacking rather than Atheism.

Just because an Atheist rejects the argument that souls, gods, afterlife, etc exist, based upon insufficient reason and evidence, does not mean that it is required for them to produce physical, empirical evidence of the non-existence of something to justify their position. Right? Might be a good time to point out that the original sandwalk challenge called only for arguments, not empiracle, physical, material evidence.

So .. yes, you do seem to be attacking a caraciture.

Andrew said...

In defense of sandwalk, the challenge was " I challenge all theists and all their accommodationist friends to post their very best 21st century, sophisticated (or not), arguments for the existence of God.", this was in response to the oft paraded comment that "There are convincing, intelligent, sophisticated arguments for the existence of god."

I do not think that is a trick question.

Theists almost always make material claims about God. It is only when pressed to substantiate such claims that (in my experience) they revert to the position that God is unknowable, or to know you must first beleive, or that God exists outside space and time. It is reasonable to ask that theists substantiate these claims if we are supposed to accept them.

Atheism is not a positive claim. It is a rejection of a positive claim. You really are asking for material evidence of the non-existence of faries. It just doesn't make sense. I totally agree with that.. hah, like finding a rock that has carved into it "There is no God"? I could probably produce that :). Hm, are not atheists themselves material evidence of the non-existence of God? Serious question, no sarcasm.

Empiracally, yes I suppose the position is untenable as you cannot disprove with 100% certainty, well, anything. Logically however you simply do not require evidence that something does not exist.

Russel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aPOMUTr1qw
Great video.. He says he rejects Christianity because there "is simply not a shred of evidence to support it."

The impact of the existence/non-existence of fairies is negligible

I strongly disagree. There are people who do believe in faries and it does effect their actions. Belief in fairies was actually quite common in the previous century and their existence was often used to explain the unexplainable. So there would definetly be an impact there.

” You seem to be arguing against a fanatical atheistic position. An extreme caricature ..”

Andrew said...

When you say stuff like

By refusing to adhere to their own criterion, Philosophical Materialist – Atheists show that their position is untenable logically and empirically, and is thus a religious position which they hold without any validating evidence to show in support.

You are defining their position as contradictory and then pointing out it is contradictory. Without acknowledging that this may actually not be their position. Philosphical Materialism seems to be what you are attacking rather than Atheism.

Just because an Atheist rejects the argument that souls, gods, afterlife, etc exist, based upon insufficient reason and evidence, does not mean that it is required for them to produce physical, empirical evidence of the non-existence of something to justify their position. Right? Might be a good time to point out that the original sandwalk challenge called only for arguments, not empiracle, physical, material evidence.

So .. yes, you do seem to be attacking a caraciture.

” ‘Hence, a universe containing, say, intelligence, logically requires a cause that also contains intelligence ... ‘

Sorry .. so then why in a place outside the universe which contains intelligence should there not logically be a cause that contains intelligence?

Evolutionary Theory can demonstrate how intelligence can arise via natural processes without requiring an intelligent first cause. I know you don't accept evolution .. and I'd rather not create another tangent...

I agree it is outside human experience, and pretty hard to even imagine.. I think I have to go back the physicists.

Michio Kaku and Lawrence Kraus are both well respected physicists (who are not Hawking) who agree that a First Cause is not a tenable explanation.

Physicist Michio Kaku directly addresses the cosmological argument in his book Hyperspace, saying that it is easily dismissed by the law of conservation of energy and the laws governing molecular physics. He gives an example — "gas molecules may bounce against the walls of a container without requiring anything or anyone to get them moving except the walls of the container." According to Kaku, these molecules could move forever, without beginning or end. So, there is no need for a First Mover to explain the origins of motion.

If the existence of every member of a set is explained, the existence of that set is thereby explained (Hume-Edwards principal)


Right. So they seem to be echoing Laplace as well. ?

Andrew said...

When you say stuff like

By refusing to adhere to their own criterion, Philosophical Materialist – Atheists show that their position is untenable logically and empirically, and is thus a religious position which they hold without any validating evidence to show in support.

You are defining their position as contradictory and then pointing out it is contradictory. Without acknowledging that this may actually not be their position. Philosphical Materialism seems to be what you are attacking rather than Atheism.

Just because an Atheist rejects the argument that souls, gods, afterlife, etc exist, based upon insufficient reason and evidence, does not mean that it is required for them to produce physical, empirical evidence of the non-existence of something to justify their position. Right? Might be a good time to point out that the original sandwalk challenge called only for arguments, not empiracle, physical, material evidence.

So .. yes, you do seem to be attacking a caraciture.

” ‘Hence, a universe containing, say, intelligence, logically requires a cause that also contains intelligence ... ‘

Sorry .. so then why in a place outside the universe which contains intelligence should there not logically be a cause that contains intelligence?

Evolutionary Theory can demonstrate how intelligence can arise via natural processes without requiring an intelligent first cause. I know you don't accept evolution .. and I'd rather not create another tangent...

I agree it is outside human experience, and pretty hard to even imagine.. I think I have to go back the physicists.

Michio Kaku and Lawrence Kraus are both well respected physicists (who are not Hawking) who agree that a First Cause is not a tenable explanation.

Andrew said...

Michio Kaku and Lawrence Kraus are both well respected physicists (who are not Hawking) who agree that a First Cause is not a tenable explanation.

Physicist Michio Kaku directly addresses the cosmological argument in his book Hyperspace, saying that it is easily dismissed by the law of conservation of energy and the laws governing molecular physics. He gives an example — "gas molecules may bounce against the walls of a container without requiring anything or anyone to get them moving except the walls of the container." According to Kaku, these molecules could move forever, without beginning or end. So, there is no need for a First Mover to explain the origins of motion.

If the existence of every member of a set is explained, the existence of that set is thereby explained (Hume-Edwards principal)


Right. So they seem to be echoing Laplace as well. ?

Intelligence is a necessary secondary deduction, not a primary necessary-and-sufficient condition.

Mmm, the main reason I ask is because the more specific a definition you can provide for a god, the easier it is to point out the improbability of it's existence.

What we seem to be working with here, at a minimum, is a powerful-to-the-point-of-not-being-contradictory, intelligent, first cause that desires a relationship with his creations. So .. if god is so intelligent, powerful and wants a relationship with me, why am I an atheist? I am certainly open to the possibility .. I just find the claim incredible, and so require some equally incredible argument or evidence to accept it. I'm sure God would know what it would take to convince me.. even if I don't know myself.

Analogies always… always… fail at some point.
No argument there. They are often just a simple way of trying to communicate the point. Curious as to why the Son of God so often used parables when they always fail at some point. Really he should have just said what was on his mind :)

I'll try again.

Atheism is not a religeon, it is a rejection of religeous claims. It is the answer of "None, N/A, ______" to the question of "what is your religeon?" Again, fuller definition at the top.

I really appreciate the direction this conversation has taken. I hope it keeps up.

Andrew said...

Michio Kaku and Lawrence Kraus are both well respected physicists (who are not Hawking) who agree that a First Cause is not a tenable explanation.

Physicist Michio Kaku directly addresses the cosmological argument in his book Hyperspace, saying that it is easily dismissed by the law of conservation of energy and the laws governing molecular physics. He gives an example — "gas molecules may bounce against the walls of a container without requiring anything or anyone to get them moving except the walls of the container." According to Kaku, these molecules could move forever, without beginning or end. So, there is no need for a First Mover to explain the origins of motion.

If the existence of every member of a set is explained, the existence of that set is thereby explained (Hume-Edwards principal)


Right. So they seem to be echoing Laplace as well. ?

Intelligence is a necessary secondary deduction, not a primary necessary-and-sufficient condition.

Mmm, the main reason I ask is because the more specific a definition you can provide for a god, the easier it is to point out the improbability of it's existence.

What we seem to be working with here, at a minimum, is a powerful-to-the-point-of-not-being-contradictory, intelligent, first cause that desires a relationship with his creations. So .. if god is so intelligent, powerful and wants a relationship with me, why am I an atheist? I am certainly open to the possibility .. I just find the claim incredible, and so require some equally incredible argument or evidence to accept it. I'm sure God would know what it would take to convince me.. even if I don't know myself.

Stan said...

Andrew: Addressing your comments numbered 10 – 15:

10. Regarding Lourdes. No you weren’t talking directly to me, but you were making assertions on a public forum, and I responded. My intent, as I said before, was to address the original occurrence, which has been termed a miracle: How do you intend to refute it? Your original statement concerned authentication by third parties. How could the authentication procedure be implemented to provide either a “proof” or “disproof” of the original event? I have asked this before. You continue to avoid it.

11. ”Again, I never claimed that and have repeatedly stated that a rational argument would be convincing.”

Then you are eliminating material evidence from your requirements, and have therefore removed yourself from the category of Atheist?

As I have said repeatedly, the purpose of this blog is to illuminate the fallacies inherent in Atheism, not to assuage the Atheist’s convictions. I have provided, outside of that purpose, a set of necessary and sufficient conditions for the existence of a creating, caring deity. In order to refute such a being, these conditions need to be refuted. Please have at it: go ahead and do it.

12. ”I don't know how many times I have to say it.

A rational argument would be convincing.

Because I have said this so many times, I thought for sure it was clear.

(note: edited to be slightly less provocative)”


The exact same statement goes for my answer to 11, just above.

13. ”You do indeed make that claim, directly as shown above, and indirectly each time you cry category error.

Your claim that an interaction occurs:

But not until I was humble enough to be spoken to and to accept it for what it was. It took me 40 years to quit telling God who he was and to accept the humble listening part, and even then the process took time; here’s why: Humility is not something that one gains by pursuing it.

Violates your premise of exclusive categories. It also makes crystal clear that you believe in a theistic god, which you have no intention of supporting through argument, only via declaration of experience (ie: witnessing). A method you agree is irrational grounds to accept a claim.


What you continue to ignore is my additional statement that there is a third set which interfaces with both the [A] and [NotA]. There is no violation if you refer to my complete assertion. As for my belief, it is still moot to the discussion of Atheist irrationality. Neither you nor anyone else has refuted the necessary and sufficient conditions for deity. So the Atheist belief in no deity is still a position without support and without refutation of its opposing concept.

BTW, the idea that the deity “speaks” to me is erroneous (I stated that badly; I was thinking in terms of a painting "speaking" to me - a metaphorical "speaking" rather than actual). There is no vibration of air molecules in the audio range, nor is there audio signaling in my neurological connections. What I have had is an experience of the deity, one which defies explanation in human terms. Whether you accept or reject this is of no concern to me. It is your issue to deal with, and I’m sure that you will do so.

Andrew said...

Analogies always… always… fail at some point.

No argument there. They are often just a simple way of trying to communicate the point. Curious as to why the Son of God so often used parables when they always fail at some point. Really he should have just said what was on his mind :)

I'll try again.

Atheism is not a religeon, it is a rejection of religeous claims. It is the answer of "None, N/A, ______" to the question of "what is your religeon?" Again, fuller definition at the top.

I really appreciate the direction this conversation has taken. I hope it keeps up.


****


I had a heck of a time breaking this up and posting it. A lot of "Too Large" errors. I hope it all gets through, without getting 3 copies of each post. I do have it saved if there are any issues.

Any idea what the character limit is?

Stan said...

14. ”14. Sure there is. You show me that it works, and how it works and I'll believe you. Y'know, like everything else you accept as fact.

Of course I am going to reject arguments without rational. Of course I want the arguments in favour of god to be convincing. I hardly think this is a point against me.”


I will repeat the first part of my original comment:
There is not, and will not be, an argument that will persuade the anti-deist, anti-theist, anti-ecclesiast, of the existence of a deity. Nor is there any argument that disproves same. Your pursuit is futile except in the sense that it is predestined, designed, to give you the answer you want. You will believe exactly what you want to believe in the rational absence of what you claim to seek.

15. ”Of course you do. You claim God talks to you.

I do not make that claim.

”You claim he desires a relationship with you.”

I claim to have had an experience. I am not privy to what God wants.

You claim that he exists.

I claim that you cannot prove that he does not exist.

”You claim that he exists in a super natural realm.”

I claim that you cannot prove that he does not exist in a set that is not included in Materialism’s arbitrary requirements (a material-only set).

”You claim the natural realm and the super natural realm are exclusive.”

And I also claim that there is a supervening set of connective tissue.

”You claim that deism is no more logical than atheism.”

This “claim” is a logical conclusion, which you have not refuted.

”You claim I must refute deism to maintain coherently my claim to be an atheist.”

This also is a conclusion of logic.

A logic claim is not a Truth claim.

”You make a lot of claims.”

Not truth claims, but logic claims – which you have not refuted.

A truth claim looks like this: "It is true that there is no deity". The claim is made without premises, without positive evidence of any nature to support the claim, other than negative evidence (of the Black Swan inductive fallacy sort).

My claims are either logic based or are experientially based (personal experience being the original empirical knowledge).

If you feel that my claims are truth claims but are not true, then show your work.

Andrew said...

10. Yep, I was just pointing out that you seemed to really latch on to that one thing and wanted to drop the rest of the conversation until it was addressed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Lourdes
Is what I am basing the account on. Am I missing something? There does not seem to be any claim of "a whole village of eyewitnesses"

I am refuting the claim that Lourdes has miracle waters simply by listing the established facts (number of pilgrims, number of healing claims, manner of healing claims, who is doing the authentication (church third party)) and basically trying to point out how ridiculous the whole thing sounds. C'mon, looking at it objectively like this .. you really find it convincing?

How could the authentication procedure be implemented to provide either a “proof” or “disproof” of the original event? I have asked this before. You continue to avoid it.

Don't recall you asking this. Certainly didn't mean to dodge it.
I think I asked for clarification on the original account which I do not have. I'm not sure you could actually prove or disprove the original event (very hard to say without a more complete account). However if the healing water claim was substantiated... well I would probably accept the original claim based on that result.

11. Not quite. I do say that a rational argument would be convincing. Sandwalk said the same thing in the original challenge which I just re-read as well. Pretty sure we both still consider ourselves in the Atheist category.

As I have said repeatedly, the purpose of this blog is to illuminate the fallacies inherent in Atheism, not to assuage the Atheist’s convictions.

By removing the demand for empirical evidence (or pointing out it was never actually there) have I convinced you that there is no inherent fallacy regarding atheism?

Andrew said...

What you continue to ignore is my additional statement that there is a third set which interfaces with both the [A] and [NotA]. There is no violation if you refer to my complete assertion.

Hm? I've actually asked you to expand on this several times. Check out the original thread, as well as the more recent ones.

To further the point, this third set then interacts with both [A] and [NotA]? All my arguments stand, just shift the [NotA] over to this new category. Provide material evidence or argumentation of interaction with [NotA or A] category.

Again, I think the theistic belief/claim is integral to the position of Atheism. If your claim is valid, I would not like to be an atheist.

What I have had is an experience of the deity, one which defies explanation in human terms.

Sorry Stan, that's just too convenient a reason to me.
Do you think if you were hooked up to a fMRI while experiencing this "speaking" that something beyond normal brain patterns would be shown? If someone without, or with a different, god belief experienced this feeling would that make a difference?

Why can I not make the same claim about fairies?

Of course I reject your unsubstantiated magic claim, It's not really much of an issue for me to deal with :)

Andrew said...

Of course I am going to reject arguments without rational. Of course I want the arguments in favour of god to be convincing. I hardly think this is a point against me.”

I will repeat the first part of my original comment:
There is not, and will not be, an argument that will persuade the anti-deist, anti-theist, anti-ecclesiast, of the existence of a deity. Nor is there any argument that disproves same. Your pursuit is futile except in the sense that it is predestined, designed, to give you the answer you want. You will believe exactly what you want to believe in the rational absence of what you claim to seek.


So to sum up, I want a reason, no reason exists. I'm not sure how you conclude then with "You will believe exactly what you want." More like I'm left with the option of having standards of evidence, or not.

I'm forced to (tentatively) conclude no god exists if there is no reason to believe otherwise.

I believe you when you say you had a moving experience with something you call God. But to my mind, this points only to the existence of moving experiences.

I will reassert my original response which is that of course you cannot prove that god does not exist, only that there is no good reason to suppose that he does. Because there is no rational reason to suppose the existence of God, the rational position to hold is that of atheism.

Stan said...

10. yet again: ”I am refuting the claim that Lourdes has miracle waters…” “basically trying to point out how ridiculous the whole thing sounds”.

Which is not a refutation, it is a mere denial. And it is not the subject which I requested that you refute, which is the original occurrence.

”C'mon, looking at it objectively like this .. you really find it convincing?”

I am asking, over and over, that you refute it in accordance with your beliefs, which are still Materialist as you adequately demonstrate in today’s comments.

”I'm not sure you could actually prove or disprove the original event (very hard to say without a more complete account).”

Girl sees a vision; spring erupts from rock wall as confirmation. Take it from there.

11. yet again. ”By removing the demand for empirical evidence (or pointing out it was never actually there) have I convinced you that there is no inherent fallacy regarding atheism?”

Absolutely not, because Atheism is necessarily Philosophical Materialist and the condition still holds; what you tried to do was to redefine Atheism in a way that it has never been defined, a way that is more convenient but not valid. Your claim was that you are an Atheist agnostic, a contradiction in terms. But your position is still strictly Philosophical Materialist, despite your claims to the contrary.

”To further the point, this third set then interacts with both [A] and [NotA]? All my arguments stand, just shift the [NotA] over to this new category. Provide material evidence or argumentation of interaction with [NotA or A] category.

Again, I think the theistic belief/claim is integral to the position of Atheism. If your claim is valid, I would not like to be an atheist.


I have already provided my argument which is my experience, which you deny out of hand:

”Sorry Stan, that's just too convenient a reason to me.”

To quote you, “Provide material evidence or argumentation” that specifically refutes my experience. You cannot do it, so you rely on, well, nothing, to make your conclusion… certainly not material evidence or argumentation.

” Of course I reject your unsubstantiated magic claim, It's not really much of an issue for me to deal with :)”

Since you do so from a purely religious standpoint, not based on material evidence or argumentation, why are you even here? You do not engage in material evidence or argumentation, you engage in religious beliefs, without evidence, without substantiation, and based purely on your personal bias (un-supported and un-supportable).

Stan said...

” So to sum up, I want a reason, no reason exists. I'm not sure how you conclude then with "You will believe exactly what you want." More like I'm left with the option of having standards of evidence, or not.”

You apply your standards of evidence to everyone but yourself.

” I believe you when you say you had a moving experience with something you call God. But to my mind, this points only to the existence of moving experiences.”

It is your choice as to what you believe; I have said before that you will believe what you want to believe, and you obviously are not beholden to either argument nor material evidence to support your claims. You demand proof from others concerning their positions, yet you provide none in support of your own. None.

” I will reassert my original response which is that of course you cannot prove that god does not exist, only that there is no good reason to suppose that he does. Because there is no rational reason to suppose the existence of God, the rational position to hold is that of atheism.”

You have not ever even attempted to refute the necessary and sufficient conditions for a deity, and for theism. Your position of “no good reason” is based on prejudice, not on logic, nor argumentation, nor on material, physical evidence. You are involved in a religious movement which you find congenial, and you reject any non-congruent input without refutation.

It’s really time to admit it. And btw, why are you even here, when you reject everything out of hand, even denying - or at least ignoring the ugly fact - that you cannot refute it? Really. Why are you even here? Go on, refute something...! We need evidence for that which we believe.... Give us some evidence to support your belief.

To repeat (ad nauseum): you cannot provide evidence for your belief. Nor can you provide evidence that refutes a deity. If you could, you would have.

sonic said...

Stan-
This is for you more than Andrew-- I don't think he would get it anyway-- post it if you see fit, but I must say (now that the comments are moderated and all)--
You have presented reasonable arguments for the existence of God.
Andrew says he must have evidence. He claims that an arm popping into existence would suffice, but the popping into existence of a universe does not. Me thinks he fools himself.
He claims a reasonable argument would suffice.
You supply one, but then he needs evidence.
I'm not sure how many times it makes sense to go round this circle.

Stan said...

Sonic,
Indeed. See today's repost of an old article on just that topic.

Andrew said...

I have repeatedly pointed out why the idea of a First Cause recognizable as God is at worst illogical and at best superfluous.

I have used argumentation (pointing out positing God creates an Infinite Regress and is Special Pleading) as well as pointing out that there are materialistic explanations that do not require a First Cause recognizable as God to explain the existence of the universe. Thus a 'First Cause' alone is not a reasonable argument to posit the necessary existence of something.

You, apparently, will simply believe what you choose to believe and are willing to ignore arguments to the contrary and obfuscate with the insistent requirement of a piece of material that proves the non-existence of something with no material. If not that, then you insist on defining my position for me and pointing out how your definition is contradictory.

You have admitted that your challenge is a trick question. You are asking for physical evidence of an imaginary, err, a "meta-physical" problem.

Btw, Popper's criteria of falsification is only one interpretation of a scientific standard. Popper's falsification criteria immediately breaks down on a purely logical level as it itself cannot be falsified. Even if it didn't, just because something cannot be falsified does not mean it is true. Re: fairies.

If you honestly find the failure to communicate here frustrating, maybe it'll make you feel better knowing it exists on both sides.

Have you read Sagan's "A Demon Haunted World"? In it, Sagan correctly asks, "what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?"

Stan said...

Andrew,
This conversation is over. You claim things which have been falsified over and over, and you project blatant falsehoods, such as that I "admit the question was a trick question".

This is your last post.

Wolfgang said...

One good sense of moral I've thought of is: if this "act" that I am about to perform, if done at the same time or almost simultaneously by everybody and in the same place (say I'm mega extrapolating here), will it have a different impact? Will I consider it differently than I do now?

for example: Throwing a cigarette butt into the street. Is it morally incorrect?

If I throw it now, probably it's so inoffensive and imperceptible, that I might say it's not wrong. But if everybody did it at the same time in the same place, it would flood the street with garbage.

Repetition might be like this: If I drink this Bacardi and coke now, is it wrong? If I do it everyday for the next 30 years, is it? if I do it 20 times today, is it?...

I think moral isn't restricted to isolated acts, but the long term impact on oneself and the environment of those acts, always taking into account time, volume, repetitions, etc.

That IS NOT subjective (so an atheist wouldn't follow this, because it probably doesn't suit him)

This isn't something that animals can come up with by themselves, they have it coded to keep a natural order, but we can actually disregard our natural coding and abuse, or not execute at all. That is free will.

I also love how you quoted Hawkings...how I love they have ACTUAL FAITH in the fact that the big bang was a self-generated event, that came out of the blue. Nice...they call it accident, I call it God...I think they are two words to define the same thing.

Thanks for your blog, it is certainly an awesome piece of work you have put down in words.

Stan said...

Wolfgang,
Your comment seems to dovetail with the view of ethics put forward by Aristotle, in Nicmochean Ethics, where he describes potential issues as having two extremes and a mean; the mean is generally more ethical than either extreme, yet not always, in his estimation. I'm not sure how the littering issue would fall, though.

It appears that the ethic would be based on objective, measurable actions but the interpretation of where to place the limit would still be somewhat subjective.

For example, with the availability of a necessity, water: too little produces dessication and death; too much produces drowning and death; just enough produces flourishing - but who defines flourishing? The extremes are obvious, the mean is harder to find.

Thanks for your comment!

Wolfgang said...

Stan, you nailed it! Thanks, you have given me extra information and it's changed a bit of my perception.

I agree totally, the mean is what it should be about, it's still a a bit subjetive, but a mean will always be more accurate, like heuristics versus the extremes.

I'll keep on reading, you have a new fan.

Stan said...

Wolfgang,
Welcome!

Brian said...

Hi Stan,

I know that atheists believe they're smarter than us, but do they expect us to believe that as well?

Stan said...

Brian,
As Vox Day recently showed based on available data, the Atheist IQ demonstration is not a normal distribution, it is an inverse curve with population at both ends and little in the middle. The population at the low end is dense, while the population at the high end is moderate, but includes some very high IQs.

Those high IQs seem to me to be easily deceived, due to arrested emotional development which reflects on the need for rationalization of personal ideologies which are emotionally derived as adolescents.

This is discussed by Vitz in his newly revised book, "Faith of the Fatherless", which deals with childhood trauma as a driver for adult rejection of authority.

Brian said...

I mean, I know that atheism is based on the faith based preconception that atheists are smarter than theists, but is that a preconception that they expect all of us to share?

Stan said...

I'd have to say yes. They have developed a way of thinking which they consider to be the only correct way; if others can't see that to be the case, then they are just "not smart enough". This view is very common on Atheist websites where the lower IQ Atheists - most of the population - congregate. And it is a common prejudice amongst the higher IQ Atheists who dominate academia, write books and give each other awards. I suspect that amongst the middle IQ Atheists, the prejudice is less, and that they get along with other folks better than the very lows and very highs. But there are fewer of them.