Wednesday, October 12, 2011

PZ posts “Why I Am An Atheist” papers

PZ Meyers will be posting a paper a day, selected from those who send in their reasons for being an Atheist. The first one is from Heather Dagleish, Scotland. Here I will go through her reasons and reasoning on why she is an Atheist.
1. ” – because of a simple love of the power of reasoning and rational thinking to bring real clarity, resolution and a grasp of the closest thing you really will get to get to real ‘truth’…”
Heather does not define “truth”, but it is clear reading further that she means no more than the Correspondence Theory of Truth, which is that an assertion corresponds correctly with a physical “Fact”. We shall see how close Heather comes to physical facts, and thus whether Heather’s reasons are “true”.
2. ” I don’t believe in gods for much the same reason that I don’t believe in fairies, bogeymen, ghosts, lucky gems, leprechauns, Santa or the Easter Bunny. There isn’t a shred of convincing evidence for the existence of any of them,”
Not an auspicious start. This is the Fallacy of False Association. Convincing is a key word here. She didn’t deny evidence exists. At this point, she merely is unconvinced, it appears.
3. ” Indeed, the whole concept of ‘god’ or ‘gods’ is so ill-defined that asking me if I believe in ‘god’ is like asking me if I believe in floogamaloops. I don’t know what floogamaloops are, and neither do you.”
Irrelevant. Red Herring. Concocting a gibberish word has no bearing on the concept of a first cause or any other god concept for that matter. I have seen this argument several places lately. It’s not clear why Atheists think it is convincing.
4. ” There just isn’t a good reason for believing in any supernatural being, and plenty of good reasons for not believing. “
Merely denial of “convincing” evidence, redux. There is no evidentiary argument here, merely an out of hand denial. And the claim is universal, as if she has heard every conceivable argument that could possible exist. But she gives no examples or reasons for believing that this assertion is “true”, no evidence.

Theists agree that there are good reasons not to believe in a deity: freedom to define one’s own morals is high up there. Freedom from absolutes which hinder Atheist thinking is another.
5. ” Theists who are otherwise rational and who fail to grasp that conclusion are simply not being fully honest with themselves, and failing to challenge their ideas on the subject of gods with the same robustness as they would challenge other ideas. And I speak with experience, as someone who once was that theist.”
Hasty Generalization Fallacy: “(All) theists who….” Heather can't possibly be expert in all opinions. She is projecting the attitude that "If you don’t agree with my conclusions you are dishonest, because my conclusions are undeniable". This is a combination of arrogance and ignorance: unfamiliarity with all or possibly any reason for considering rational reasons for thinking otherwise, yet making declarations of "truth" concerning them. And again, without evidence.

Plus it violates the Atheists own creed: where is the evidence (physical of course) that this is “true”?
6. I don’t know what exactly gods would be like, and neither do you. Or rather, everybody has their own personal idea of what ‘god’ is – varying vastly from person to person, region to region and time to time. To some, god is simply energy, and you can find it in a lump of coal – which is at any rate an interesting insight into the power of wishful thinking, and the tragic lengths some people will go to to cling desperately and shamelessly to this strange ‘god’ notion.”
False concepts do not prove non-existence. God “notions” have no bearing on the actual existence of a non-physical being. Where is her EVIDENCE? Oops, sorry that I shouted that.
7. ” Do you believe immunoglobulin M exists? I do. And I can tell you what it is – and it will be roughly the same definition that any person who knows about the subject will give you. And I could hand you to someone more competent than myself who could give you the robust evidence for the existence of immunoglobulin M, and take you through graceful laboratory techniques that isolate the molecule and allow us to say things about its size, structure and function. The great thing about it actually existing, and having a testable definition, is that it will pass through the fire of reason, and you don’t have to take it on faith.
The idea that because substance X is analyzable materially, but a god is not, therefore no god exists – is a simple Category Error. One also cannot put logic or mathematics or the First Principles or meaning, etc. under a microscope for physical examination. This argument has no bearing on the possible existence of a non-physical entity. It doubles as a Red Herring. But let's take a further look:

If [substance X exists] therefore [no god];
Substance X exists;
Therefore, no god.

But [no god] is not a subset of [substance X]. The argument is based on a flawed premise. The existence of [substance X] has no bearing on [god vs. no god]. There is no set, [Substance X] which either includes or precludes [god vs. no god].

Also, the non-existence of [substance X] does not ensure that there would then exist [god], or even guarantee that conditions now exist which would allow a god to possibly exist.

Possibly Heather didn't intend it to be a logical argument, but more of an analogy. But the analogy also fails for the same reason: the existence of a physical substance has no bearing on the existence or non-existence of a non-physical entity. What it seems to demonstrate is Heather's comfort zone, which accepts the physical but not the non-physical. It's a good thing she is not a mathematician.
8. ” Of course it also helps that IgM is a mere molecule that lacks the capacity to be a passive-aggressive bastard that wants to hide its existence from you, reveal itself occasionally through arbitrary phenomena such as weeping statues and faces in toast, and otherwise must insist on being taken purely on faith – which are common themes on the subject of gods – but let’s not complicate things further.”
The Ad Hominem demonstrates anger at something she claims does not exist – an irrational response. The rest is the continuation of the Category Error / Red Herring. But the “purely on faith” charge continues to be pressed against the opposition while totally ignored in her own mind-spawn.
9. ” And that’s why I’m an atheist. My own atheism is a simple consequence of my reasoning – just one result of my mind thinking rationally – one result of many opinions I’ve landed on through reason.”
When one worships reason, one should try to understand that reason can be erroneous as well as valid. Heather shows no indication of that; rather she seems to be captured by the simplest of erroneous web-borne Atheo-excuses, and is calling those errors: reason. There is one thing that Atheo-Materialists never consider examining with their self-designated powers of Skepticism, and that is the output of their own minds. There are standards for use in calibrating such things; Atheists tend to deny all absolutes, though, and are satisfied in the perception of their intellectual superiority, thereby not needing any rational calibration.
10. ” literally anyone who doesn’t believe in gods gets to legitimately call themselves an atheist – no matter how bizarre or outlandish their beliefs and worldviews may be outside of that particular aspect of their thinking. So atheism isn’t important or particularly worthy or noble to me just in and of itself – the process that gave rise to it in my case is. I am an atheist because I am a rationalist – an honest and thorough rationalist – and my rationalism is much, much more important to me than my atheism could ever hope to be.”
Heather is engaged here in self-worship: she is "honest and thorough"; her mind is the most important thing, and she is convinced that what her mind produces is correct. She betrays no need to check her mind’s output against any standards, nor does she even refer to or acknowledge any standards or possibility of incorrect logic. She gives no evidence for concluding that her mind output is infallible. And here she extends her worship to some methodology:
11. My atheism is but a small bud sprouting from the scientific thinking that lets me appreciate the real world, the real universe, as it actually is, in every other aspect of my life. Atheism should be one of those things you arrive at in any honest quest for truth – but it’s not an ends in itself. And science, reason, rational thinking and sceptical enquiry are the best tools devised for uncovering reality.”
These methods uncover the totality of all of "reality" in Heather’s world, a physical world in which she is correct, even without evidence. This is Philosophical Materialism and Scientism.
12. ”There are of course “other ways of knowing” – it’s just they’re complete bollocks. Beyond laughable in the shadow of empirical science. ‘Intuition’, ‘gut feeling’ and ‘just knowing’ are alternative ways of knowing things, in much the same way that having sex standing up is an alternative form of contraception. Find me a person who could uncover the structure of the atom, of light, of the complexity of life through “other ways of knowing”. It’s exasperating, ridiculous and sad that adult humans can even utter those kinds of opinions with a straight face.”
Yes indeed: the shadow of empirical science. At the top Heather claims to be a scientist. If that is so, she certainly is unaware of the necessary foundation of empirical science upon axioms which exist outside and beyond science, and which science has no capacity to ever prove, yet which science necessarily accepts as valid in its everyday functions. The ignorance of scientists concerning their own field of empiricism is “exasperating, ridiculous and sad that adult humans can even utter those kinds of opinions with a straight face,” to cop a phrase.
13. “I don’t know whether to laugh or cry – and I don’t care if they’re offended by that. They should be. They don’t deserve to be cushioned from having their beliefs poked and prodded – and frankly, they really don’t know what they’re missing by not learning to love sceptical interrogation, the thrill of the culmination of arriving at a real, intellectually satisfying conclusion, instead of evading awkward questions, putting their fingers in their ears and playing the faith card to shield their cherished beliefs.”
The arrogance of ignorance comes out full force here. “Skeptical interrogation” is merely nay-saying without any intellectual input to contribute to the conversation. Skepticism merely says “you can’t prove that”, and by prove, the Skeptic means physical proof. There is no other contribution made by Skeptics or Skepticism. As for intellectually satisfying conclusions, we have seen what sort of conclusions satisfy Heather. By attacking unarmed believers with aggressive fallacies, Heather feels that her victories demonstrate her superiority. Rather it appears to be pseudo-intellectual bullying.
14. ” Faith is by definition belief without evidence – it’s pulling things out of your ass; it’s clinging to things that you might well know are faintly ridiculous; it’s putting up barriers to honest enquiry; it can be used as an impediment to curiosity and intellect, and it is simply the most ridiculous method of discovering or knowing anything about reality. It’s not a virtue – and it shouldn’t be a virtue in wider society any more than it would be in a court of law.”
Heather’s worship of physical reality is based on the belief – without evidence – that there is no reality which is not mass/energy, space/time. Even real science acknowledges that only a tiny part of the existing universe is detectable using physical techniques; the rest is dark to physics: dark energy; dark matter. And never mind that physical investigations are doomed to never produce a non-physical “truth” due to its category limitations to physical objects, nor any detection of what exists outside the universe itself. "If science can't detect it, it doesn't exist", is the thought process. Yet we know that there are non-physical truths which have no existence in terms of mass/energy and space/time.

To cling to the idea that no non-physical existence exists, and to do that clinging without evidence, is “putting up barriers to honest enquiry”, to say the least. And what is less a virtue than declaring oneself intellectually honest, while violating all sorts of intellectual restraints?

Plus, who is Heather to declare that there is no non-material existence? What is her authority for this statement, unless she produces evidence? Where is her evidence? We demand evidence… material evidence for her beliefs! She cannot be allowed to believe something without evidence under her own conditions of rationality. Yet she does have beliefs without evidence, contradicting her own standard of intellectual hygiene. This is blatant Non-Coherence: Violation of the Principle of Non-Contradiction. A rational error.

And again the arrogance, while pulling things out of her own, umm, ass. It is dishonest to do the exact things which you are accusing others of doing.
15. ”Some atheists of course ‘respect’ such nonsense – but that is just yet another reason why atheism is not an ends in itself to me. It’s all about the process of rationality, reasoning and sceptical curiosity that if pursued boldly should necessarily give rise to atheism, and have much, much broader and deeper ramifications than just mere atheism alone.”
The ramifications of believing one’s own rational Fallacies and logic errors, believing within non-coherent constraints, believing that the products of the mind are tautologically true, correct and therefore somehow sacred, will lead to the ideas of personal superiority and intellectual supremacy with which Heather is infected. One might wonder what sort of ethical conclusions Heather’s reasoning has brought her to. She doesn’t mention that, but her dishonesty intellectually does make one wonder about her ethical declarations.

Heather had ample opportunity to provide evidence for her beliefs. But she didn’t attempt to do so. She made claims for rational thinking and proceeded to perform some of the most basic Fallacies and errors of logic.

PZ’s quest for Reasons To Be An Atheist is not off to a well grounded start.

18 comments:

BENTRT said...

You smashed that!

sonic said...

"It is important to realize that in physics today, we have no knowledge what energy is. We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount."
Feynman
and
"We can't define anything precisely. If we attempt to, we get into that paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers… "
Feynman

Apparently Heather doesn't really know much about science either...

Martin said...

Yuuuuuup. I was gonna do something similar, but my critique of Dan Barker's non-tract is pretty much a re-hash of the same thing.

Amazing how irrational these "rational" people are...

Son Eek said...

Heres the thing you can measure energy. i you think its does not exist try stickign a fork on the electrical socket. Whilst you cant see it you can measure it, be it wind, g force, electricity, heat etc. you cannt do that with your god, and why stop at a god how about fairies per square metre, or nomber of gods per square mile meter

Chris said...

It always amuses me when I encounter the convert to scientistic fundamentalism.

The dogmaless dogmatic? Odd that.

Stan said...

Son Eek

I have responded to the Inductive Fallacy nature of this sort of argument in the post above:

http://atheism-analyzed.blogspot.com/2011/10/another-post-at-pzs-place-on-why-i-am.html

If you have further questions, let me know.

Stan said...

Son Eek,
I should add that the comparison of electricity (energy) to a non-physical entity is a Category Error. Here's why that is so:

Electricity is a natural phenomenon which falls under the category of Mass/energy. The universe consists of mass/energy and space/time - as far as we know (discounting dark energy and mass).

So electricity is not a non-physical entity, and it is an error to compare it to the category of non-physical entities.

You can deny that the category of non-physical entities exists, but that denial can't be supported with physical evidence (i.e. science) because science is restricted to the category of physical entities, which is mutually exclusive from the category of non-physical entities.

Philosophical Materialism asserts the need for physical, empirical proof for every assertion - yet it cannot provide that sort of proof for its own assertion that non-physical entities do NOT exist. So its fundamental assertion violates its own rules, making Philosophical Materialism paradoxical and non-coherent.

Jeremy said...

A question Stan.

How would you react should material evidence of a deity be discovered? For instance should the prophecies in the book of Revelation become fulfilled and a new Heaven and Earth replace the old, suffering and death ends and God comes to dwell with humanity in the New Jerusalem.

Or (slightly) less preposterous, say a DNA test was performed on a holy wafer and it was discovered to in fact have human/god-like DNA. Don't know if you are Catholic, but for the sake of the argument suppose that you accept transubstantiation.

Or a copyright stamp was found hidden in every DNA sequence. Something like "Yahweh, 10,000 BCE"

Would you reject such evidence and claim that such is a Category Error, using material evidence to prove the existence of a non-material being?

Stan said...

"How would you react should material evidence of a deity be discovered?"

Are you expecting that I would recoil in horror that there is a physical capability involved? Because I would not be surprised that a non-physical entity with the capability to create something could also modify that something.

Transubstantiation is not a principle of Theism, it is an ecclesiastic addition by humans. It's validity or non-validity has no bearing on the existence of a non-physical entity with the ability to create and modify a universe.

You are resorting to creating absurdities in order to make a point you cannot make by straight-ahead argumentation against the premise, which is (yet again):
the existence of a non-physical entity with the ability to create and modify a universe.

Answering absurdities is a logical error itself. Absurd discussions are merely absurd.

You cannot (because you have not) addressed a rational reason under the principles of logic for why there is no (yet again) existence of a non-physical entity with the ability to create and modify a universe.

Kindly show something which addresses the issue directly.

Jeremy said...

I'm glad you think it's absurd. I do as well. The first example is straight out of the Bible. The second is a very common Catholic concept and the last is my own 'absurd' idea.

My end point here is that despite your objections of a Category Error, you would readily accept material evidence of an immaterial being. Which once again means that they are not exclusive to each other. Which once again means that the immaterial is subject to investigation.

Apologies if you find my questions absurd. It is amazing what some people will believe, and every theist believes something slightly different so it can be very difficult to abandon all assumption or even to reach a consensus on definitions.

Stan said...

My end point here is that despite your objections of a Category Error, you would readily accept material evidence of an immaterial being. Which once again means that they are not exclusive to each other. Which once again means that the immaterial is subject to investigation."

I think this might be the last attempt at trying to explain this to you. You are playing games now, which are so outrageous that they are no longer of any value. But here we go.

The domains are separate. There is an agent with the capabilities of moving between when so moved. You cannot prove otherwise or you would have done so by now.

Instead, at another location, you refuse to accept the responsibility to investigate the girl at Lourdes, even after expounding the virtues of forensics. You choose which ones to investigate based on what you think will fit your bias?

As for differences in theist's viewpoints, I don't think you'll find much difference in the most basic essentials, which is all that I discuss here. Does a First Cause exist or not? Which option is more reasonable to assume? Denying a First Cause involves believing that the universe happened without a cause - which means believing in something never witnessed in this universe.

Ecclesiasticism (in the form of rites, sub-beliefs, etc) is human fabricated and is of no value in determining the likelihood of the existence of a First Cause.

Jeremy said...

Sorry Stan. I am not playing games. I am attempting to wrap my head around your world view so I can have a coherent discussion. If you think it unbelievable that I cannot immediately grasp such heavy concepts that you have obviously invested hundreds of hours into working out you either have a very high opinion of me, or a very low one of yourself.

It just sounds to me like you want it both ways. God interacts with the world, but we can't investigate it. We cannot expect material evidence of God, (although you admit such evidence would not horrify? you) although you provide no alternative means to gain any knowledge of him.

"A former 40 year Atheist analyzes Atheism, without resorting to theism, deism, or fantasy."

You are completely resorting to Deism. Also, how can you address atheism without resorting to theism??? Atheism is a rejection of theism. A-theism. Without-theism.

"Denying a First Cause involves believing that the universe happened without a cause - which means believing in something never witnessed in this universe."

Accepting a First Cause involves believing that the First Cause happened without a cause - which means believing something never witnessed in this universe.

As both arguments promote/refute only a deistic god (which I have no issue with) I don't see a reason for me to argue. Both claims to knowledge seem equally preposterous.

And please, don't respond with the claim that I can't prove God doesn't interact with the world. You cannot disprove anything with such a nebulous definition as the one you have provided.

Stan said...

”It just sounds to me like you want it both ways. God interacts with the world, but we can't investigate it. We cannot expect material evidence of God, (although you admit such evidence would not horrify? you) although you provide no alternative means to gain any knowledge of him.”

No, actually I believe I said it can be investigated but not proved or disproved. Unexplained occurrences are declared under such conditions. Going back to the claim of a miracle at Lourdes, there were two aspects: the claim of a vision, and the claim of a new spring spouting from the solid rock cliff as a sign. The villagers claim that no spring ever existed there before.

Now how would you investigate this? Forensics is helpless in the case of the claimed vision. Forensics might be able to show that no spring was there prior to the claimed event. Forensics might show a shift in ground horizons which allow water to seep out where it never had before. But forensics cannot show, uncontrovertibly whether these things happened as claimed, or did not happen as claimed. Only the girl knows.

The spring is still running and has run continuously since the “event”, and a great many people visit it. We visited it on our tour of South France. But the proof or disproof of its miraculous nature is elusive.

I am not claiming that the event was God caused. I am merely using it to demonstrate the inability of science to make truth statements regarding the claimed event, even an event with a physical artifact.

”You are completely resorting to Deism. Also, how can you address atheism without resorting to theism??? Atheism is a rejection of theism. A-theism. Without-theism.”

It is not the case that Atheists are Deists (!) Atheists reject all gods, period.

What I am doing is pointing out that Atheist truth claims cannot be supported by evidence, specifically when the claim ignores the possibility of a first cause. It is not necessary to claim that "Deism is True" in order to prove that Atheism is False. The presumption of Deism on the observer's part comes from the realization that if Atheism is False, then at least Deism must be true. However, I don’t need to make that statement as an argument.

”"Denying a First Cause involves believing that the universe happened without a cause - which means believing in something never witnessed in this universe."

Accepting a First Cause involves believing that the First Cause happened without a cause - which means believing something never witnessed in this universe.


You are re-creating the Who Make God Argument, which is beside the point. The point can be argued only if one accepts at least one god, which Atheists do not. It makes no difference as to the existence of a First Cause whether that cause had a cause. It is interesting to note that Atheist Philosophers argue against infinite regresses, yet they allow this one through, even though it has no bearing on the original argument.

As both arguments promote/refute only a deistic god (which I have no issue with) I don't see a reason for me to argue. Both claims to knowledge seem equally preposterous.”

Actually accepting a First Cause does, in fact, mean accepting something never seen in this universe, precisely because the cause occurred prior to the effect (the universe), as do all causes observed in this universe, where causes exist prior to, and outside of, the effects.

”And please, don't respond with the claim that I can't prove God doesn't interact with the world. You cannot disprove anything with such a nebulous definition as the one you have provided.”

I have made the necessary argument above. You are free to prove otherwise.

Jeremy said...

"No, actually I believe I said it can be investigated but not proved or disproved."

And how many incidents which upon investigation have concluded a phenomenon unexplainable? I could list a myriad of supernatural claims resulting in a natural explanation. For me, super naturalism died the death of a thousand paper cuts.

Proof is a slippery term. Let's agree that colloquially "proof" equates to "extremely probable".

Going back to your Moses example, I think it reasonable to conclude that if there is a complete lack of evidence, where evidence is to be expected, then it is entirely reasonable to accept a disproof of an event. And this certainly seems to be the case for the Jews in Egypt.

"But the proof or disproof of its miraculous nature is elusive."

Not just elusive but completely unfalsifiable. You could argue that lightning is caused by a miracle as well. Sure we understand the naturalistic explanation, which is complete in and of itself. However you cannot prove that underlying the naturalistic explanation Thor is not immaterially evoking the lightning. The exact same can be said of Lourdes. Just because a girl imagined something is in no way indicative of an immaterial reality. I mean really...?

A little perspective here.
http://i.imgur.com/vDpel.jpg
And the creator of all this is revealed by a mirage and a trickle of water? Unsatisfying doesn't even begin to cover it.

"What I am doing is pointing out that Atheist truth claims cannot be supported by evidence, specifically when the claim ignores the possibility of a first cause"

No one is ignoring the possibility. I am saying the to claim the First Cause is God is incredibly premature. We have no knowledge of what came before the universe and as such it would be ignorant to claim such.

Again, atheism is a rejection of a theistic claim. It is saying "I don't buy that argument." Usually because there is zero evidence and little reason to believe the argument.

"It makes no difference as to the existence of a First Cause whether that cause had a cause."

Agreed. The leap is calling any sequence of Causes "God".

"Actually accepting a First Cause does, in fact, mean accepting something never seen in this universe, precisely because the cause occurred prior to the effect (the universe), as do all causes observed in this universe, where causes exist prior to, and outside of, the effects."

Right. This doesn't sound like an argument FOR your side.

Stan said...

Jeremy, I have to go out of town tonight, so I'll answer this late tonight or tomorrow a.m.

Stan

Stan said...

”No one is ignoring the possibility. I am saying the to claim the First Cause is God is incredibly premature. We have no knowledge of what came before the universe and as such it would be ignorant to claim such.

You are therefore demanding knowledge of something that cannot be tested, verified or falsified materially under the rules of empirical science. (Remember Category Error?)

You are maintaining your Naturalistic position despite having been demonstrated the internal contradictions of that position.

And you are rejecting the concept of cause and effect being used to project a logical likelihood.

These three positions are part of the Philosophical Naturalism dogma, which is taken without any support other than mere rejection (your statement is purely rejection without any support for its validity other than the Ad Hominem of “ignorance” for those who disagree.

” Again, atheism is a rejection of a theistic claim. It is saying "I don't buy that argument." Usually because there is zero evidence and little reason to believe the argument.”

Yes, that is the case. Atheism is a rejection. It is not a proof, nor is it based on evidence. It is purely a rejection. And the rejection is not based on no evidence for its support. The demand for evidence for Theism stands in direct contrast to the lack of evidence for Atheism. Two premises, as follows:

Premise A: No first cause for the universe.
Evidence for premise A: none, zero, zip, nada.
Type of argument: none, purely rejection.

Premise B: Probable first cause for the universe.
Evidence for premise B: logical extension of the principle of cause and effect.
Type of Argument: Logic & Probability.


Your acceptance of premise A is not based on either evidence or logic; it is an emotional decision, it is not a rational conclusion based on evidence or logic.

”"It makes no difference as to the existence of a First Cause whether that cause had a cause."

Agreed. The leap is calling any sequence of Causes "God".”


This makes no sense. There is no possibility of calling natural sequences “God” under any non-absurd conditions, and the comparison is false.

The cause of the universe – regardless of its source – would be the first cause of the universe. That is the specific subject here: the first cause of the universe. Questioning its source is meaningless, existentially.

”"Actually accepting a First Cause does, in fact, mean accepting something never seen in this universe, precisely because the cause occurred prior to the effect (the universe), as do all causes observed in this universe, where causes exist prior to, and outside of, the effects."

Right. This doesn't sound like an argument FOR your side.”


Jeremy – sheesh. That statement is almost exactly the argument being made here! You seem to lose sight of the actual discussion fairly often. Get some rest, friend.

Jeremy said...

I've not rejected a First Cause, it is you who are tilting at an argument I did not make.

My argument, which I opened with, is this. (Remember the Jefferson quote/comic?)

A. God exists outside the universe.
B. Therefore we can gain no knowledge of him. (Feel free to posit means of knowing what exists outside the universe.)
C. Therefore Theism is a non-starter as God is a nebulous concept which does not demonstrably interact with the universe. And since this is the case, why does it matter??

OR

A. God exists within this universe.
B. Therefore we can gain knowledge of him.
C. Therefore it is reasonable to expect material evidence for his existence as he affects the material world.

Your objections and my responses:

1. There must be a First Cause which we call God.

A. It is premature to call the First Cause "God" as "God" is a loaded term which comprises of considerably more than a First Cause.

2. Naturalism is self-refuting.

A. No it is not. There is amble evidence that the natural exists and no evidence the super natural exists. In the face of this, claiming that Naturalism is incoherent is absurd. I have also listed the strongest/most common arguments against Naturalism I could find and you'll notice they are all weak and easily refuted.

3. "Atheism is a rejection. It is not a proof, nor is it based on evidence."

A. It is based upon the faulty evidence and argumentation theists put forth. The evidence for atheism is that theistic claims fail. Everything from Genesis to Moses to Rick Perry praying for rain and getting fire instead.

4. God chooses when to interact with the world.

A. Well great. When you figure out how to determine what is God interacting and what is just natural phenomenon, you let me know. (Note that if God interacting is indistinguishable from natural processes, the God Theory is completely superfluous.)

I have not rejected your Premise A as described above.

I can tentatively accept your Premise B. I have questioned how you can claim the First Cause is named "God". Such a claim seems completely unsupported by the available data, which is nonexistent.

Apologies if I paraphrased any of your arguments poorly, such was not my intention. If my claims are so far afield of what you are attempting to describe you find the gap unbridgeable I understand if you want to end this conversation.

Stan said...

” I've not rejected a First Cause, it is you who are tilting at an argument I did not make.”

Jeremy you are slip-sliding around. Just yesterday you said this:

”No one is ignoring the possibility. I am saying the to claim the First Cause is God is incredibly premature. We have no knowledge of what came before the universe and as such it would be ignorant to claim such.

And as I said up front, I never made the statement you attribute to me calling the first cause God. You made that up, and I called you on it.

You consistently argue against a first cause. But occasionally you claim to have no problem with Deism. And then you make this statement:

” ”"Actually accepting a First Cause does, in fact, mean accepting something never seen in this universe, precisely because the cause occurred prior to the effect (the universe), as do all causes observed in this universe, where causes exist prior to, and outside of, the effects."

Right. This doesn't sound like an argument FOR your side.”


This sort of thing makes it impossible to carry on any meaningful conversation.

Now you accept Premise B? What does that mean to you?