Thursday, March 1, 2012

Why Don’t We Trust Atheists? Well, Post Natal Abortion and Personhood, for Example.

This subject arises du temps en temps and for some reason Atheists cannot believe that they are not considered trustworthy, despite the lack of morality attached to their belief system. They actually think that by creating a personally congenial code of behavior which matches their actual daily doings, that their tautological morality should be obvious to everyone, and that not only are they moral, they are more moral than anyone else, all of whom are admittedly moral defectives, to wit: sinners. (One cannot be a sinner if one declares that there is no sin of course).

Not only are Atheists, in their own minds, more moral than their inferiors, Atheists are in possession of the moral authority to determine morality for the rest of humanity. For example, take a look at all of the Humanist Manifestos.

Some Atheists attain accreditation in moral superiority; they call themselves “ethicists”. By pondering - in ungrounded ponders of course, there being no absolute grounds - the value of other humans who are not themselves, they are able to make moral pronouncements on the value of classes of humans, again not themselves.

In a sense, all Atheists are ethicists, in that they determine at least their own personal ethical systems of behavior. So every Atheist is at least a moral authority unto himself. It is not entirely clear how it is that some, but not all, Atheists acquire the extra moral authority to declare ethics for everyone. Regardless of how that accreditation is acquired, some Atheists have it, and they become career moral authorities for the rest of humanity.

Now two of these career moral authorities have declared a new class of non-valued humans: the post-natals. Here is a summary of their new revelations:
Abstract
Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus' health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.
Now, since this new revelation is an intellectual understanding of some sort, we should see how it stacks up before rejecting it as the product of fools. Well, “should” is too strong, that is a moral pronouncement itself; it is not necessary to examine it before rejecting it on the basis of “who do they think they are, God?” - the product of fools... and summarily shit-canning the entire subject.

But of course, many folks will consider this Atheist revelation to be elegantly compelling, and for that reason alone it needs to be analyzed.

First off, it presumes that pre-natal abortion of a fetus is a rational and therefore moral action. It explains legally declared ethical reasons to destroy a fetus and then asks, what is the difference between a fetus and a new-born, the answer for which is merely: a breath of air.

For diseased pre-born fetuses it is presumed ethical to kill them. But some diseases, such as Down’s syndrome, are not 100% detectable prior to birth. So why not kill them post-natally? Since there is no definitive difference between pre-birth canal and post birth canal existence, the value of the critter is the same one second after as it is one second before traversing the canal. So it is not the process of birth that influences the value being placed on the critter.

Yes, it’s a critter all right. But is it a human? Who is to say? If the mother and the ethicists agree that it is not a person, why then who can disagree? In fact, at what age does this determination procedure become invalid? Well, age is not the criterion. There is no age limit for placing value on a human.

What is the criterion for personhood? According to these two career moral authorities, it is just whatever they, themselves, figure it to be. Their specific criterion is... well, it just doesn't matter; they have one today. Now we might sit down and calculate the ROI for a just birthed critter, say on the average of a large population. Or we might do a specific calculation on the ROI for a just birthed critter for the individual case, say based on class, genetic history, family prior contribution to human welfare, needs for balancing the sexual population, needs for dealing with social ills such as poverty, or other social imbalances which this individual might exacerbate, etc. (Can Social Justice be ignored at the valuation of an individual, morally?)

There is absolutely no restriction which is logically attached to the authoritative determination of the value of humanesque critters, regardless of birth status or time since traversing the birth canal. So it is incumbent upon someone to make the decision, someone with moral authority of course. And we already know who that is, the career moral authorities: the ethicists.

By measuring the value of individuals (as has already been done by the Emmanuels in the current Democrat administration) those who do not contribute significantly to the betterment of humankind (for example) can be credited with less or no value. This is a simple determination. Equations already exist toward that end.

The problem then becomes what to do with them, those who are devalued. At what point are their sources of sustenance reduced, or their sources of life maintenance removed, or maybe outright termination is required? Since the age, post natally, is not the issue, then how should the older ones be terminated? Or should they be sequestered in encampments? Perhaps some value might be extracted in terms of labor? And when they no longer can perform that, then extinguish them?

These issues will be decided by the ethicists, of course.

Why should we not trust them with our lives as they socially engineer the future for our children... Oh wait... the children, what about the children??

If social engineering and eugenics is about a better world for the children, it is definitely not for ALL children, is it? Only those finding favor with the Atheist ethicists.

Note: link fixed.

28 comments:

Anonymous said...

Your link doesn't work.

Anonymous said...

I would like to point out that there is nothing about this issue that is inherently atheistic.

I personally find the idea of killing newborn babies to be appalling. Such a brave stance, I know.

Who's having abortions (religion)?

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html


Perhaps more untrustworthy are the religious who condemn abortion on one hand, yet over 85% of people receiving abortions are explicitly religious.

Here is a good article on why atheists are so hated in America.

http://www.dontfeedtheanimals.net/2012/02/why-are-atheists-so-hated-in-america.html

Basically, its a version of xenophobia.

Stan said...

Gonsalves makes up his own reality. The fake reality he presents as truth is one reason that Atheists are not trusted.

There is a difference between anti-intellectual (those who declare themselves to be intellectually superior), and anti-rational or anti--science. The persons calling themselves American Intellectuals have proven themselves in general to be a hater of everything of value to a free society; social theories abound which are designed to take from producers and distribute to favored classes. This being the output of the intellectual, why do they wonder that they are outcasts except amongst their own?


The USA has an Anti-intellectual culture in the sense that intellectuals have rejected all grounding for their arguments which are, at best, circular and without intellectual value: and they want these opinions to be adopted as the modus operandi of the lesser folk. But the rejection of the Intellectual output is based on solid reasoning, grounded in First Principles, and therefore is the rational, logical position to take. America in general is more rational and logical than the pretentious, arrogant cadre of self-designated elites. In fact, that should be the definition:

Anti-Intellectual: adj. rejection of the foolish outputs of self-designated pretentious, arrogant elitists.

Gonsalves is attempting to be one of the intellectual elite, by making up things as he wishes to hate them. His view is a caricature which he applies to an entire class as the truth. His history of the nation is a joke, and his view of Christianity is perverted by his own hatred.

Gonsalves:
"There is, in the USA, a thing called 'Christianity' that has little to do with Christianity as it is generally understood in Europe, or in the longer view of the Christian tradition. It is a heavily nationalistic, militaristic, masculine, authoritarian cult, with Jesus as the Cadillac-Driving All-American Hero who has come to save his Chosen People from Gayness, Socialised Medicine, Arabs and Long Haired Hippies. This might best be called, "Amerireligion". This was deliberately created after the 1960s by the American right, who wanted a way to stop the changes begun by the Progressive Era and the New Deal and to restore the dominance of the old ruling class. "

This is transparently classist, paranoic, Leftist propaganda, designed to promote hatred for the Other. It is juvenile in its illogic. Why should anyone trust this person with anything of importance?

By quoting this sort of hate rhetoric as Atheist thinking, the point is illuminated: there is class war, and it is manned by the Left and its Atheists; Gonsalves is an example.

Stan said...

To claim that abortion is not an Atheist value is absurd. Here is what has happened over the past 4 decades. It has been declared impossible for teenagers to keep their pants on. That is just too much to ask of them. So they must be provided birth control, with the expectation that they are going to have sex. Given that expectation, that is what happens, of course.

So some of them get pregnant. Well they are too irresponsible to care for a child, so they need to kill the embryo. But maybe the parents would object, so we must enable the killing to happen without parental interference. So the adults of legal age in the family are not to be informed of the killing of their grandchild, in utero.

And since the minorities are especially prone to being induced into this behavior, extra facilities and focus on their neighborhoods is installed.

Even though abortion is almost entirely performed as birth control by dismemberment, it is to be advertised as "women's health care" so that everyone can be taxed to support it.

Oversight is forbidden, even though much of the abortion activity is due to boyfriends inducing underage females to abort to cover up statutory rape of juveniles.

There is no rational connection between Christianity and abortion, no matter if some Christian women do succomb to the temptation.

Whateverman said...

To claim that abortion is not an Atheist value is absurd.

Abortion is not an atheist value. How do I know this? Atheism is only a claim about a lack of belief in deities. Values are acquired elsewhere - as you well know.

Stan said...

You are right of course, as far as you go. Atheism has no values attached to it. So Atheists must create their own or at least select those held by others, and so they do and abortion is one of those.

That is not the same as saying that it is a value taught by Atheism. It is not. As you say, Atheism is a moral and intellectual void.

So the void must be filled with - not any absolutes, of course - opinions on the values of actions such as killing embryos, and opinions of who they would allow to be called a person, for purposes of eradication.

These opinions are called Ethics.

Ansell said...

What are these absolutes that non-atheists believe in exactly?

Stan said...

Ansell,
Here is a quick dozen:

1. The First Principles of Rational Thought.

2. The ability of humans to discern valid from non-valid, and true from false, using principles of deductive logic, and grounding in the First Principles.

3. Axioms that are universally accepted, the contraries of which are logically absurd; Free Will is an example.

4. The demonstrable logical fallacy upon which Philosophical Materialism is based. Neither Philosophical Materialism nor Atheism can produce material evidence to support their main claims: they both are blind beliefs (faith-only religions, with no evidence of their truth even possible).

5. The insufferable Atheism of Richard Dawkins despite his claim to Agnosticism.

6. Meaning exists and is non-material.

7. Imperatives do not derive from declaratives, and morality does not derive from empiricism.

8. Neither Skepicism nor Atheism produces knowledge.

9. Neither life nor intellect can be anticipated by examining minerals.

10. Agency cannot be anticipated by examining the position of particles.

11. Atheism has no morality attached to it.

12. Atheists may derive whatever definition of morality which they find congenial to their own desired behavior. (The Dahmer/Consequentialism Principle). This renders the Atheist tautologically "good" (behavior fits his morals) and simultaneously not trustworthy.

BENTRT said...

Stan.

In relation to point 12. I know that the atheist is not trustworthy in his approach to ethics. But I brought that up the other day with an atheist at university and he said that I was equally dishonest since I was making a claim to knowledge of an absolute morality and the benchmark I was using is not reliable. He said it was an impossibility for a subjective (i.e. me) to perceive, understand, know or experience (all subjective processes) absolute values.

To him there was no distinction between those who subjectively claim a personal morality, and those who subjectively claim an personal morality based on an absolute morality. He saw both forms of morality as derived from subjectivity.

Stan said...

Bentrt,
He was absolutely certain of this no doubt.

Relativists cannot be absolutely certain of anything; they can have no absolute knowledge, even of relativism.

Relativism is a poor cousin of Radical Skepticism; it denies knowledge and cannot produce knowledge.

With absolutes, arguments are either circular, coming back to themselves for authentication, or they are infinite regresses which go on forever looking in vain for a principle which is true in itself in order to validate the entire chain of argument/subarguments. Neither approach produces an argument with truth value.

For absolutists, the question, "why are you absolutely sure that there absolutely are no absolutes?" seems to disorient them.

Also, "Perhaps the absence of absolutes is relative only to you?"

And, "Is your existence, being not absolute, relative only to your mind? All of existence is merely imaginary, relative to yourself, and not absolute? You are somehow deceived into thinking 'existence' exists?" (brain in a vat - ultimate skepticism - shown with reductio ad absurdum).

++SloMo++ said...

"(brain in a vat - ultimate skepticism...)

But if the brain doesn't do the thinking what use is the brain in the vat? I've just invented Hyper-ultimate Skepticism!

Stan said...

Good work! You are now honorary Philosopher of the 7 second delay!

Anonymous said...

There is no rational connection between Christianity and abortion, no matter if some Christian women do succomb to the temptation.

85% is not "some".

Numbers 5:12-28 details the conditions and manner which a priest may perform an abortion.

God frequently commands the killing of children. (Or Post-Natal Abortions).

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Just a small example of the so-called supreme morality of the christian deity and his pro-life decrees.

I think that more than fulfills the criteria of a ration connection between Christianity and abortion.

Despite your proclamation that it is absurd to consider abortion not an atheist value, you've actually established no link qualifying such.

In fact your entire post history could be viewed as .. how did you put it?

This is transparently classist, paranoic, propaganda, designed to promote hatred for the Other.

Stan said...

85% is not "some".

It is not as if 85% of Christian women get abortions. In a country that is mostly Christian, why do you find that number compelling? Christians do not claim not to succumb to evil.

Go to the Pew Report. Protestant Christianity shows a mix of pro-abortion 51%, and anti-abortion, 49%. The even mix shows that abortion is not a Christian issue, at least if numbers are the criterion. By comparison, 87% of Atheists favor abortion.

” Numbers 5:12-28 details the conditions and manner which a priest may perform an abortion.”

That scripture is not about abortion at all. Your interpretation is absurd.

” Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB”)

And that scripture is expressly about Lucifer and his children (v 14:12). You apparently got this stuff off of a non-analytical Atheist website, where quoting verses out of context is supposed to assign guilt to God, based on the morals assumed by Atheists who have no morals under Atheism, but love to judge the morals of others anyway, based on their self-designated moral superiority.

Shall we do one more?

Stan said...

” "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)”

Here the traitors are found and killed. They refused to accept warnings and they were warned of the severity in advance. But they remained traitors, except for a few who were marked. The punishment was harsh, as promised. It included nearly everyone, including children. And it was not focused on children as an abortive measure of convenience for purposes of sexual irresponsibility. I.e. it is not abortion, the cold-blooded killing for no reason other than self-indulgence.

But the killing of children sanctioned by today’s government and society is without any reason other than convenience. It is cold, stone cold. It is without a shred of remorse. It is defended as “women’s healthcare”, a lie so transparent that it is a window into the lying hearts of the murderous defenders. And it serves the explicit purpose of promoting sexual irresponsibility. This is the opposite of the purge of violent, unjust traitors described above. It is purely self-indulgent.

Comparing the two situations is absurd. And to condemn God or the Bible or Christians on the basis of this text, in the face of the cold blooded massacres of over 50,000,000 humans by abortion is beyond absurd: it is irrationally insane.

The defense of abortion via Tu Quoque arguments focused on select verses in the Bible is a losing situation for Atheists. Atheists might cow a few people who are ignorant of the Bible when they produce quotes such as these, but for those who have read the Bible and attempt to comprehend its context, these quotes merely point to a justice which is beyond Atheist comprehension, or at least their desire to admit to its virtue. For Atheists, there is no virtue or evil, except to point to Biblical excerpts and shout: “Evil; God is evil!”, while doing those same things themselves in spades, only out of self-indulgence.

"Despite your proclamation that it is absurd to consider abortion not an atheist value, you've actually established no link qualifying such."

Try the above, it's a simple google away.

I usually don’t indulge the God-hater/Bible-perverters, nor do I address those who hide behind the skirts of “anonymous” and haven’t the spine to choose a moniker.

I guess it’s a slow day.

Scooby Doo said...

It is not as if 85% of Christian women get abortions

That is exactly my point. Religiosity has little bearing to determine if a women actually has an abortion. It certainly does not seem that being religious prevents one from choosing to abort. This just makes the (aborting) religious hypocrites.

The Numbers passage describes how the Law of Moses specifically authorizes abortion in the case of a married woman impregnated by a man other than her husband.

Also, no one "favors" abortion. It's pro-choice. As in, a women should not be forced to carry her rapists baby. She should not be forced to raise a child she if is emotionally, financially or physically unable to do so. There are a host of other reasons. This is no mere simple "convenience".

IMO, abortion should be safe, legal and rare.

Isaiah 14:21 NAB is about an Assyrian King. They say he was the son of Lucifer yes. I suppose that then is reason enough to slaughter his children hmm? Good moral story there.

Re: Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT

Oh, so because they were warned, that justifies the slaughter of children? WTF. Are you serious?? If a man is found guilty of treason to the US, do you fucking murder his children?? So long as you gave him a heads up right? Your god is reminiscent of a mob boss. Oh, except mob bosses actually exist.

Anyways, my point is only that there are clear commands in the bible to kill children. This should be undeniable, but once again I am amazed at the mental gymnastics of which the religious are capable.

Oh and here's the website.
http://www.usccb.org/

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

For Atheists, there is no virtue or evil, except to point to Biblical excerpts and shout: “Evil; God is evil!”, while doing those same things themselves in spades, only out of self-indulgence.

Demonize the Other. Make no effort to understand their point of view. Bastardize their expressed viewpoint. Strip them of any positive human qualities. Oh yeah, you are doing it right.

Stan said...

”The Numbers passage describes how the Law of Moses specifically authorizes abortion in the case of a married woman impregnated by a man other than her husband.”

It does no such thing. It is a test of fidelity to assuage jealousy.

”Also, no one "favors" abortion. It's pro-choice”

This is a universal statement made from a purely ideological standpoint and evidence to support it is impossible; “choice” is a euphemism for “it’s OK to choose to kill one’s progeny”. Making it sound pretty doesn’t change the fact that a human in a normal stage of human growth is killed at the whim of the mother. Or in some cases, the girl’s boyfrieind. To invoke rape is ridiculous, considering the over 50,000,000 dead humans involved. And the claim that no one favors abortion is also ridiculous: the present administration has supported that killing and taxpayers are expected to support that killing and now conscience-based organization are being ordered to pay for that killing; someone favors such killing. Certainly those who refuse to allow the mother to be fully informed of the status of her fetus favor abortion. To say that no one favors abortion is an abdication of responsibility for one’s actions, which are obviously amoral at best.

”She should not be forced to raise a child she if is emotionally, financially or physically unable to do so. There are a host of other reasons. This is no mere simple "convenience".

Should? Should? Since when does Atheism engender shoulds? Who is the supreme moral authority who declares these shoulds? Why are people not encouraged to not have sex if they cannot endure the responsibility? They are, in fact, encouraged in sexual activity by not having any responsibility for their actions. Abortion produces more abortion. The policy hypocrisy is palpable. Follow the money. There are billions being made off of these rationalizations for killing humans.

Is every parent who is “emotionally, financially or physically unable” to be responsible to be allowed to kill her progeny, burn her house for the insurance, avoid any/all of her obligations by killing those to whom she has obligated herself? And yes, it is for convenience; it for the convenience of avoiding responsibility for one’s actions, actions one should not take if one cannot accept the consequences.

”Isaiah 14:21 NAB is about an Assyrian King. They say he was the son of Lucifer yes. I suppose that then is reason enough to slaughter his children hmm? Good moral story there.

You appear to think that by quoting Bible verses you can show that Judeo Christians should be condemned for the same offense, that of gratuitous killing of infants. This is an attempt at a Tu Quoque fallacy, doubly false because these verses do not show what you are trying to paint them as showing.

Yes, according to the Bible the deity used many techniques to eradicate hopelessly evil cultures and especially evil tyrannical lineages. Why anyone should need to defend that decision is a curious thing, except that Atheists feel themselves morally superior and morally authoritative beyond that of any deity. But since Atheists cannot prove the non-existence of a deity, then they have no logical reason to assume that their own existence is superior. So Atheists making moral judgments, being without moral authority, have no bearing on the actual moral position of a deity. A moral judgment made without moral axioms grounded in moral authority is completely valueless.

The royal lineage of tyranny was to be wiped out, and the Israelites to be freed from slavery and persecution. Reminiscent of Saddam Hussein and his sons, perhaps? And Khaddafy and his son? And the Romanov family, wiped out by Atheists, who then used the Red Army to wipe out entire cultures? And the Atheists of China who removed the empress's womb involuntarily to prevent future lineages of emperors?
(continued)

Stan said...

In fact, the feigned disgust expressed by an Atheist is based only in presumption of hypocrisy in the deity, that hypocrisy being based on further presumptions of what a deity “should” do, as opposed to what the deity did do. And the “should” is nothing more than a personal opinion held by the Atheist. So there is exactly no reason to be concerned with whatever an Atheist thinks a deity should do, nor with whatever moralizing an Atheist pretends to have the moral authority with which to place judgment.

So your attempted analogic Tu Quoque fails. Further you cannot support your moralizing under any tenet of your Atheism, which has no morality attached; your moralizing is seen to be gratuitious and without any grounding in your own belief set. Much less the moral authority to place such judgments.

” Oh, so because they were warned, that justifies the slaughter of children? WTF. Are you serious?? If a man is found guilty of treason to the US, do you fucking murder his children?? So long as you gave him a heads up right? Your god is reminiscent of a mob boss. Oh, except mob bosses actually exist.”

Your pompous arrogance has no grounding in Atheist principles, because there are no Atheist principles; your perceived superiority is merely an artifact of your personal claim to moral authority, which you do not have.

Nor do you have evidence of the non-existence of the deity in question. You only presume all the things which you think you know: (a) there is no deity because, well, it is to be presumed; (b) Atheists are more moral because, well, it is to be presumed. (c) You can judge the morality of everyone else because, well, your moral authority is presumed. You can provide no evidence, either rational or material to support your personal superiority. So there is no reason for anyone else to accept it.

” Anyways, my point is only that there are clear commands in the bible to kill children. This should be undeniable, but once again I am amazed at the mental gymnastics of which the religious are capable.”

Yes, there are such commands. You have no moral authority to judge them.

”’ For Atheists, there is no virtue or evil, except to point to Biblical excerpts and shout: “Evil; God is evil!”, while doing those same things themselves in spades, only out of self-indulgence.’

Demonize the Other. Make no effort to understand their point of view. Bastardize their expressed viewpoint. Strip them of any positive human qualities. Oh yeah, you are doing it right.”


Oh I understand your point of view: you cannot really defend your position of killing 50 million humans by abortion, so you claim not to like it, but it is really the choice of the woman to kill her progeny and that is sacrosanct to the Atheist viewpoint, and it therefore cannot be stopped. Besides, these women should not be held responsible for their actions, and should not be discouraged from them: there are to be no consequences. And the Atheist, whose Atheism attaches and suggests no morality, makes it plain that his personal brand of morality supercedes all others due to his obvious moral superiority. These are the overt and obvious characteristics of the Atheist Pro-Killing advocates; it is not necessary to strip positive human qualities when there are none available for stripping. But it is definitely necessary to strip away the false front and expose the actuality beneath: there is not one breath of support for the humans at the fetal stage being killed constantly in the human abattoirs.

Anonymodoo said...

Wow you really like strawman arguments, don't you.

"It does no such thing. It is a test of fidelity to assuage jealousy."

Right and if she fails the test, the child inside her dies. Aborted. "Her womb falls out", I believe is the line.

To invoke rape or an nonviable pregnancy is not ridiculous as these very things have been presented by the religious as immaterial grounds to terminate a pregnancy. "Embrace the gift god gave you" I think is the "pretty" way of telling a women to bear and raise her rapists baby.

But no, my favourite bit is how you declare that since atheism makes no moral statements, that moral statements are beyond atheists.

Your bigotry is palpable. You know damn well the "belief set" of atheism does not address moral issues, so you twist it to mean that atheists are without morals.

I am a human with human sympathies and can damn well say that your biblical deity is a monster. That you defend the murder of children. That you defend it by calling them evil (yet apparently still the creation of your twisted god), demonstrates the poison that is religion.

You're damn right I feel morally superior to your fictional deity. Gee, have I ever killed every man woman and child on earth? No? Well I'm ahead of him then.

And you are damn right that I will judge people that defend the murder of children by waving it away as "the eradication of an evil lineages".

You do not understand my viewpoint and you make no effort to do so.

I view the unborn to be potential members of society and should be treated as such. I have stated that post-natal abortion seem horrific. You just ignore that in your wave of bigotry.

However to outlaw abortion only increases the number of unsafe abortions. It does not stop abortion. This is the problem with making laws by ideology instead of evidence.

As I said, abortion should be safe, legal and rare.

Oh and this bit slays me.

"Nor do you have evidence of the non-existence of the deity in question."

There is a mountain of evidence which contradicts every deity ever worshiped, save those defined so carefully as to be be beyond the possibility of evidence either for or against.

So which is it then? Do you ignore the evidence which contradicts your deity, or do you define him so carefully as to be beyond falsification?

Stan said...

Please quote the verse which says that there is a child, that the child dies and falls on the ground. And the version of the Torah which says that.

NAS, 5:21, 22:
21 (then the priest shall have the woman swear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people by the Lord’s making your thigh waste away and your abdomen swell;”

22 and this water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.: And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”

NAS, Lockman Foundation, 1995.


NIV, 5:21, 22:
21 Here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath – “may the Lord cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell.

22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away.”
Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it”.


NIV, Zondervan, 1995.

KJV, 5:21, 22:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot and thy belly to swell;

22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot.
And the woman shall shalt say, Amen. Amen.


KJV, Thos. Nelson and Sons, 1927.

You said,
”Right and if she fails the test, the child inside her dies. Aborted. "Her womb falls out", I believe is the line.”

False. You might want to read actual Bibles, rather than the Skeptic'fs rewrite.

”But no, my favourite bit is how you declare that since atheism makes no moral statements, that moral statements are beyond atheists.

Your bigotry is palpable. You know damn well the "belief set" of atheism does not address moral issues, so you twist it to mean that atheists are without morals.”


Atheists are free to create their own morals.

Kindly deny that, with evidence to support your assertion.

By knowing only that a person is an Atheist, it is not possible to know if that person has any morals, or if so, what they might be (the Dahmer Effect)

Kindly deny that, with evidence to support your assertion.

Anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot, obviously: an Ad Hominem attack is always from intellectual weakness.

”I am a human with human sympathies and can damn well say that your biblical deity is a monster. That you defend the murder of children. That you defend it by calling them evil (yet apparently still the creation of your twisted god), demonstrates the poison that is religion.”

Your opinion is of no value in terms of placing moral judgments which you think are binding, especially on a deity, whose existence you deny but cannot disprove. Given that you don’t even know if there is a God, having no evidence to present to support your case, you haven’t enough situational knowledge, nor the moral authority to judge situations concerning the decisions of a deity. Your opinions are merely hate-filled rants based on your perception of what you demand in a deity. But it is not up to you to make demands of what a deity should or should not do. You have only your opinion and it is totally without force.

”You're damn right I feel morally superior to your fictional deity. Gee, have I ever killed every man woman and child on earth? No? Well I'm ahead of him then.”

If you paid your taxes and live in a western nation that was part of the coalition that invaded Iraq, then you have done exactly that. Your purity and moral excellence is in your mind, and there only.
(continued)

Stan said...

”And you are damn right that I will judge people that defend the murder of children by waving it away as "the eradication of an evil lineages".

As above, you have very likely participated in that very thing. Your personal holiness is not obvious; your hate is.

”You do not understand my viewpoint and you make no effort to do so.”

Already answered this yesterday. I understand exactly how holy and superior you think that you are.

”I view the unborn to be potential members of society and should be treated as such. I have stated that post-natal abortion seem horrific. You just ignore that in your wave of bigotry.”

False. Absolutely false. You consider interfering with women’s rights to kill their progeny to be more horrific.

Why don’t you just write down the word “bigotry” enough times that you tire of it, and then post that? And then tell us how tolerant you are, and holy and excellent in your love of humanity?

”However to outlaw abortion only increases the number of unsafe abortions. It does not stop abortion. This is the problem with making laws by ideology instead of evidence.”

The ideology is that the woman’s decision to kill her progeny supercedes any morality involved. That is the Atheo-Leftist moral standing.

”As I said, abortion should be safe, legal and rare.”

And you said that the woman should decide. You can’t have it both ways.

” ‘Nor do you have evidence of the non-existence of the deity in question.’

There is a mountain of evidence which contradicts every deity ever worshiped, save those defined so carefully as to be be beyond the possibility of evidence either for or against.”


If you can prove that there is no creating agent for the universe, then show us your data, the experimental procedure you used to gather the data, the measurement techniques, the parameters being measured, and the replications presuming no falsification. No, you have no evidence. None.

Your weasel words seem to acknowledge your inability to disprove some “careful definitions”. Interesting cop out. But still, feel free to provide all your material evidence for the non-existence of a non-material entity of any type, not just a deity.

So which is it then? Do you ignore the evidence which contradicts your deity, or do you define him so carefully as to be beyond falsification?”

You apparently have not the least clue as to the purpose of non-falsifiability, which Popper defined as part of empiricism. Read Popper. Then we’ll talk. Hint: all non-material claims are non-fasifiable.

Stan said...

I think it might be useful to apply some logic to your denial of having killed anyone, which is your plaint of ultimate personal virtue.

1.) IF you were a citizen of any of the coalition states which invaded Iraq,
AND IF you paid taxes,
THEN you were complicit in the killing of Saddam Hussein and his two sons, the serial rapists/torturers/murderers.

2.) IF you were not a citizen of any of the coalition states which invaded Iraq,
AND IF you paid taxes,
THEN, you de facto supported Saddam Hussein and his two sons in their serial rapes, tortures and murders that would have continued.

3.) IF you were a citizen of any of the coalition states which invaded Iraq,
AND IF you did not pay taxes as a protest to the invasion,
THEN, you de facto supported Saddam Hussein and his two sons in their serial rapes, tortures and murders that would have continued.

4.) IF you were not a citizen of any of the coalition states which invaded Iraq,
AND IF you did not pay taxes as a protest to the invasion,
THEN, you de facto supported Saddam Hussein and his two sons in their serial rapes, tortures and murders that would have continued.

5.) IF you didn’t pay taxes regardless of where you hold citizenship, then you either are,
(a) unemployed and have no culpability;
(b) underage and have no culpability;
(c) a tax dodger, and thus a criminal of the state;
(e) employed by the government and thus a criminal of the people.

The only way to avoid culpability for either the killing of Hussein and his sons on the one hand, or the rapes, tortures and murders which they would have committed on the other hand, is to have been either unemployed or underage, and to have paid no taxes.

Neither being unemployed nor underage is a cause to claim an exceeding virtue, and neither is paying no taxes.

So in the modern world it is not actually possible to avoid culpability; you are not immune, and you cannot claim immaculate virtuous morality under any sort of logic. No one escapes, and by claiming yourself to have immaculate morals you merely demonstrate your own culpability for self-righteous arrogation of perfection, in the face of adult responsibility.

So which of the above describes you? You claim that it is monstrous to kill a tyrant and his sons, so apparently you fall into the categories defending them, and ironically their monstrous crimes against women. And btw, when defending them you should acknowledge that the rape victims being produced constantly by the poor offspring of Saddam had no access to abortion, either.

Speaking of abortion again, the defense of any abortion whatsoever is the defense of killing an innocent human being. There are not two possibilities here, where one type of pregnancy produces an evil child deserving of death by dismemberment, and another type does not. Like it or not, aborting any pregnancy, regardless of its instantiation, kills an innocent human, who had no choice in its existence and no defense against its murder.

Tell me that is not the case, and then defend your position.

You claim to have human feelings for humans, but you grant exceptions for certain humans in certain cases which you, yourself judge not worthy of your personal empathy. Look up the word "bigotry". Then re-read this paragraph.

Anonymous said...

Oh you caught me! I remembered the verse incorrectly. The LORD curses her to make her belly swell and her thighs rot! WOW THAT IS SO MUCH BETTER! HOW GLORIOUS IS GOD!!

You win this round!

Oh no, wait!

"so shall the priest adjure the woman with this imprecation—“may the LORD make you a curse and malediction* among your people by causing your uterus to fall and your belly to swell!"

http://www.usccb.org/bible/numbers/5
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

I had already given you the link. But yeah, when you say the LORD just curses her legs to rot away, that sounds SOOO much better.

"Atheists are free to create their own morals."

Yes, through reason and empathy ideally. Unlike your slavish devotion to a poorly written 2000+ year old book as the ideal of supreme morality.

"Anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot,"

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

This is demonstrated by your claim that since atheism makes no claims on morality, that atheists are without morals. You slander an entire subset of people because you are deliberately ignorant. And that's just scratching the surface. Your entire site here is full of such bullshit.

"You consider interfering with women’s rights to kill their progeny to be more horrific."

Because I have a passing education. If you outlaw abortion IT DOESN'T STOP ABORTION.

"If you can prove that there is no creating agent for the universe,"

Ah, going with the "You can't prove me wrong so I'm right! approach. Well that's intellectually sound. Complex philosophy is not require to dismiss extraordinary claims. Merely common sense. You know Santa isn't real too correct? Can you prove it? Let's see your data. And experiment.

Your last post. Wow. WOW. WOOOOOWWWWW.

Contrasting the biblical slaughter of a nations first born sons, of every man woman and child on earth, and the demands of your fictional god to invade and slaughter foreign lands and dash babies heads of rocks ... to the assassinations of 3 people who were among the worst sadists and criminals in recent history, and my culpability as a tax paying citizen of a western country.

Your religion has poisoned your mind if you think these two events has any moral equality.

Back to abortion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/news/12iht-12abortion.7863868.html

A comprehensive global study of abortion has concluded that abortion rates are similar in countries where it is legal and those where it is not, suggesting that outlawing the procedure does little to deter women seeking it.

Moreover, the researchers found that abortion was safe in countries where it was legal, but dangerous in countries where it was outlawed and performed clandestinely.


Realize you are on the side arguing for unsafe abortions and that your supposed claims of moral superiority amount to nothing but increased suffering in the real world.

Stan said...

I seem to be in conversation with a child. You want to prove something and you can't. So you charge fully sideways, shouting and making childish sound effects and doing diversionary dances.

You claim a personal morality of perfection. BUT...

...Here is the thing. You are lying. You want to quote the Bible incorrectly, but you can't, so then you want to change that to some Catholic page. You are lying, pure and simple. I don't subscribe to Catholicism; even Pelosi and Biden don't, and Catholicism is not the subject here, so you are shooting out Red Herring diversions again.

Surely it is obvious that there is no potion which swells the belly and rots the thighs upon sensing illicit intercourse; the claim is a ruse to assuage the jealousy. The woman wins, and the man wins.

So on to the next lie. My claim is not that Atheists have no morals. You are lying again. My claim is that no one can know if a person has morals, nor what those morals would be, just by knowing that the person is an Atheist. And you, an Atheist, cannot know if the next Atheist you come across has morals or not either. That's a non-refutable fact, again known as the "Dahmer Effect". Don't like it? Well you don't get to choose which facts obtain.

That is the truth, you know it is the truth, you can't disprove it because it is true, so your only recourse is to call names and misrepresent it as something else... more childishness and intellectual irresponsibility.

"Your religion has poisoned your mind if you think these two events has any moral equality."

No, it is naturally a part of Atheism that you think that you are so morally impeccable that you can decide who should and should not die, and then condemn all others who disagree. Of course you accept no culpability: that is for the other guy.

Repeat this, in your head:

50 million dead humans on your watch. And rapidly rising.

It is so common for Atheists to defend the guilty and persecute the innocent that it seems to be an innate characteristic of the Atheist Faith.
(Continued)

Stan said...

"Because I have a passing education. If you outlaw abortion IT DOESN'T STOP ABORTION."

The argument,

"If you outlaw X, it doesn't stop X"

is a non-starter. Plug in any illegal activity, say rape, murder, pedophilia, whatever. No serious person would recommend not outlawing these, on the basis of your argument. No matter how loud you shout it, son.

And regarding the Atheist Faith, you are ignoring the challenge for you to provide evidence supporting your own faith. Being evidence based, Atheism fails its own claims. It is irrational. But I will continue to remind you, as long as you show up here: prove your faith is true; prove your moral authority; use all the material evidence which you can gather.

That's because without evidence you have no basis for your belief system and no basis for your beliefs, which you declare - without any evidence whatsoever - make you morally impeccable. Your moral bleating is nothing beyond just that; you have no absolutes, moral or otherwise, beyond what is in your own head. There is no basis for your claim of moral impeccability.

You must show your work: if you are morally impeccable, show us the basis for your belief system, and the derivation of your personal morality from Atheism.

Forget the attack on Christianity, which is a convenient diversion of attention away from your own issue, a Red Herring, which you use to cover up the actual morality and source of morality which you claim for yourself.

If there is poison in the culture, it is in the Atheist self-annointment of the moral authority to condemn others on the basis of non-absolute, non-grounded personal moral theories, which are subject to change as is convenient, and which are relative only to the Atheist who concocted them. And that is how you marched in here, ready to do moral war, such a superior creature, full of moral indignation. But you have no basis for such moral claims for yourself: proclaiming yourself moral is cheap - every criminal does that. What must be done is to show why you are the supreme moral authority to which all others must bow.

Can you do that? Of course not.

And no I am not arguing on the side of unsafe abortions, that's another lie. I am arguing for personal responsibility in sexual activity.

Here's another thing: I'll bet that you would not agree with the death sentence for rapists, am I right? Only the death sentence for the new human produced by the rape. Poison? Yes, I think so.

Anonymous said...

I seem to be in an argument with an idiot and a liar. One who delights in straw man attacks and red herrings while accusing others of the same.

"You claim a personal morality of perfection."

I did not claim that. You are a liar.

"You want to quote the Bible incorrectly, but you can't, so then you want to change that to some Catholic page"

I listed the quote and its source in my original comment. I didn't "change" anything. You want to cry about it now and dismiss it's source because it doesn't align with your personal choice of the thousands of denominations of Christianity. You want to tell me specifically just what it is you believe so I can point out all the logical inconsistencies? Or do you want to keep hiding behind the skirts of "not my religion." Do you want me to list the hundreds of morally reprehensible verses in the texts you did reference??

"Surely it is obvious that there is no potion which swells the belly and rots the thighs..."

Of course its obvious. Just like it is obvious that the entire bible is a work of fiction. Curses don't exist in real life. Just like deities. Are you agreeing the bible contains falsities? Just what is your supposed rock supporting your absolute morality which is apparently required to make any moral judgement?

"My claim is not that Atheists have no morals."

Really. Because this thread seems to be about how atheists have no morals and couldn't give a shit about the murder of 50 million babies.

Speaking of facts. It is a FACT that approximately 42 500 000 of those abortions were done by explicitly religious persons. Dead on YOUR watch, by the people you are defending while you rail against atheists and attempt to lay the blame on them. This is why you are a bigot. You don't get to choose your facts either.

"Plug in any illegal activity, say rape, murder, pedophilia, whatever. "

Did you want to lists some nations where any of those things are actually legal? Or did you just want to throw out more irrelevant red herrings?

"And regarding the Atheist Faith, you are ignoring the challenge for you to provide evidence supporting your own faith"

No more than you ignore the challenge to prove that every imaginary being isn't real. Frankly it is incredibly demented to proclaim the existence of something and then say that if you can't prove it is not so, you lose the argument.

Here I'll bite.

"But still, feel free to provide all your material evidence for the non-existence of a non-material entity of any type, not just a deity."

You just defined your deity out of existence.

It's not-material therefore it doesn't exist. If it did exist, you would present material demonstrating such. It would be a obvious. But no, you have to hide behind weasel words like "provide material evidence for the immaterial". Excuse my language, but what bullshit. What a cowardly argument. At least say it is a matter of faith. At least reference a personal experience. At least say something respectable even if it is indefensible instead of something cowardly AND indefensible.

..cont.

Anonymous said...

"Being evidence based, Atheism fails its own claims. "

I believe in evidence. I believe in the natural world. I believe in people. I believe in a LOT of things. The only "claim" atheism makes is that theism is on the same level of every other "immaterial" claim and thus almost certainly false. There is an entire material universe and in all that we have found, gods have been absent.

"Forget the attack on Christianity, which is a convenient diversion of attention away from your own issue, a Red Herring, which you use to cover up the actual morality and source of morality which you claim for yourself."

Actually, that's where the conversation started, to provide a connection between the religion and abortion. I provided statistics and bible verses condoning the murder of children. It is you who is constantly throwing up red herrings. Like prove something doesn't exist. Ya okay wise guy.

"What must be done is to show why you are the supreme moral authority to which all others must bow."

Again, I did not claim that. All I claimed was that abortion is not an inherently atheistic issue, and the rest extrapolated from that. But again, nice try with the strawman and red herrings.

"I am arguing for personal responsibility in sexual activity. "

Yeah, who isn't? Education, a social safety net are the best means imo. Not outlawing abortion which can be demonstrated to have only negative consequences. Not the abject failure that is (the religiously promoted) abstinence only education. There are religious arguments against all contraceptives. What's the result? More abortion. More disease. Or maybe you are okay with condoms and reject the verse:

" it is better to spill your seed in the belly of a whore than spill it on the ground."

Just curious.

How about this. Let's say abortion is illegal. What punishment should you deliver to a women (and the doctor I suppose) who then receives/performs an abortion? Stoned to death perhaps? I dunno, why don't you flip through your book of absolute morality and let me know.

"Only the death sentence for the new human produced by the rape. "

Yes. At a couple weeks development (a reasonable time after a rape to identify a pregnancy) the potential human has no nervous system and cannot feel any pain (this doesn't start until week 9). It has no memories and cannot feel loss. The suffering incurred by the potential human is non-existent. The majority of all abortions occur before week 9. Ones that occur in the later trimesters are frequently because the fetus would self-terminate or result in an nonviable birth anyways.

Even in such a case, I would be personally torn. However what I am certain about is that it is wrong to say to the women that it is illegal for you to terminate.

And seriously. How can you in one line say you argue for personal sexual responsibility, and then in the next saying that the victim of a rape should bear the life long consequences of an undesired child? What if the victim is 14 and the rapist is her father? What then. Where does your sense of (apparently) absolute morality draw that line? Look it up in the bible and get back to me, okay?

Stan said...

Anonymous,
I won't respond to any more comments by anyone called "anonymous".

Also, my response to your above comments, the last of this series, is made into a post, called "Abortion: Who Decides Who Dies and Why", dated today, 3-9-12.