The term “statist” is one suggested by Mark R. Levin in his book, “Liberty and Tyranny”. This term is a more truthful substitute for the term, “Leftist”, and certainly for the false, inverted use of the term, “Liberal”. “Statist” much more accurately describes the underlying beliefs of those who want government control over positive human rights, and the reduction of the masses to co-equals in all things, especially in economic status and ethical status. I intend to use the term statist much more in reference to the objectives and worldviews of Atheists and Relativists.
The question of whether every Atheist is a statist resolves to how one views the source of human rights.
First off, there are only two choices, and they are very clear cut . Either human rights are “unalienable” or they are not. If they are unalienable, the force that makes them so must be beyond and outside the reach of human power to revoke them. Moreover, the rights are primary; removal of rights by other humans is a secondary function. So unalienable rights are “negative” human rights – the right to do anything not specifically prohibited.
Conversely, if human rights are not unalienable, then there is no power outside that of humans which prevents one human from denying the rights of another human. So the rights of humans are those which are allowed by the government: positive human rights. These are the rights favored by Obama, the rights bestowed by totalitarian government.
So the choice of negative, unalienable human rights requires a belief in a supernatural power capable of conferring such rights. This choice is not available to Atheists. The Atheist is stuck with revocable, human conferred and human eliminable positive rights.
For an Atheist to claim belief or support for negative, unalienable human rights is an exercise is pure deception – either self deception or intentional lying. An Atheist cannot be held to any standard other than Relativism, situational ethics and flip-flopping personal proclivities. So why should anyone believe an Atheist who makes any claim about his belief in certain types of human rights? (Or any claim on any subject for that matter). Especially when he logically can support only one type: positive human rights, which are revocable by whoever is in power, since there is no supernatural power to consider.
So Atheists cannot logically be anything other than de facto positive rights statists: in other words, elitist totalitarians. And claims to the contrary are pure dishonesty (but honesty is another one of those nasty absolutes that Atheists reject).
Now as for every statist being an Atheist, that is clearly not the case as is seen with Islam, which controls all aspects of human life under Sharia Law.
So Atheists are merely one subcategory of statist-totalitarian. But the commonality of that connection is why Atheists and statists revere the oppressive regimes du jour – Islam and its aggressors are the current vogue after Stalinism has died down. (Stalinism arose as the statist favorite after the lust for fascism died down). It is the common bent toward a forcible state subjugation and suppression of the hated masses and a resulting government of the elite, by the elite, for the elite which ties them together.
As for what Atheists say, just ignore them and they will soon be saying something different with just as much fervor; such is the style and variable mindset of the relativist.
13 comments:
An Atheist cannot be held to any standard other than Relativism, situational ethics and flip-flopping personal proclivities
Hi Stan, in support of your comment, see this article by atheist and naturalist Keith Augustine entitled "In Defense of Moral Subjectivism: An Argument for the Subjectivity of Moral Values"
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/moral.html
He argues that "If objective moral laws are part of the natural universe (not part of some supernatural realm), then the universe cannot be unconscious--it must be, in some unknown sense, sentient. Few naturalists would want to accept such a nonscientific pantheistic conclusion.
Another reason that moral objectivism is implausible is because all the laws of nature that we are aware of are descriptive: they describe how certain configurations of matter or energy will behave under different circumstances. But moral laws are prescriptive: the describe how certain sentient beings should behave under different circumstances. This is why a law of nature like the law of gravity cannot be violated, but a moral law like "Thou shall not kill" can be. Nothing else in the universe has this strange prescriptive quality--nothing we know in nature gives any part of the natural world a "duty" to behave in a certain way."
P.S
I wrote an e-mail to you a couple of days ago
Thanks ZC! I have plenty of reading ahead.
Can you explain why I am against totalitarianism as much as you?
Why is it that I see anti-gay-marriage amendments as pure totalitarianism generally defended by those professing Christianity?
Why is it that I feel, inside, as truly anti-statist as you but for completely different reasons?
Why is it that when I see you write an article about how atheists are statist, I shudder because all I see are atheists FIGHTING totalitarianism?
Martin,
What I see are Atheists fighting to institute a variable, relativist government while rejecting all cultural values that are not their own; fighting for utopia through totalitarian humanism; fighting for total control of childrens minds through forced government schooling and revised history books, with the Dewey Atheist precepts being used to dumb down the populace; the media being used to blanket society with trash and misdirection. The list goes on for a long, long time.
I suspect what you see as "fighting totalitarianism" is merely fighting off the personal offensiveness of being subjected to Christians existing in your world. And if this is the case, as it is with a great many Atheists, what you really want is for your world to be cleansed by the use of positive rights... which are totalitarian.
Last, you cannot possibly believe in the negative rights which are "unalienable", and made "unalienable" by the superior force of a creating being. If an Atheist "believes" this, then he is co-opting a religious viewpoint that is not Atheist.
"Why is it that I see anti-gay-marriage amendments as pure totalitarianism generally defended by those professing Christianity?"
I suspect that this is because you have totally bought into the idea that there is no such thing as sexual perversion. The Kinsey propanda supports sex with children; do you think that banning that is totalitarian? Is there no area of personal restriction that is not totalitarian? Or are all laws totalitarian? Are cultures to be prohibited from protecting cultural values? Or are cultural values an obscenity to be eliminated? Perhaps culture should have no values at all? No integrity, or other moral concepts, just anarchy? Or possible you have your own personal set of morals that you want to see installed to apply to everyone?
Homosexuals have never, ever had an "unalienable right" to marry, except under the current concepts of Leftist sanctification of perversion. Totalitarian? In no way! Homosexuals are protected from being offended by their very own hate laws. Anti-free speech is a totalitarian measure used by homosexuals against anyone who disagrees with them.
So again I suspect that the rights you want us to have are different from the unalienable, negative rights of the constitution; that just leaves positive rights and totalitarianism. Sorry, that's how it is.
"I suspect what you see as 'fighting totalitarianism' is merely fighting off the personal offensiveness of being subjected to Christians existing in your world."
Not at all. What I'm objecting to are Christian (or any religious) beliefs being turned into law by the State. The State should be 100% secular because we all have to share it.
It's like the community bathroom.
When Christians complain about the "Stalinist atheists" removing prayer from schools, I sigh very VERY hard. Anybody is free to pray in school and nobody is saying you can't. The State just can't make laws that mention it one way or another, for or against, even indirectly. Being neutral on a subject is not the same as being against that subject.
"And if this is the case, as it is with a great many Atheists, what you really want is for your world to be cleansed by the use of positive rights... which are totalitarian."
What I really want is for the State to stay out of private lives of consenting adults. Period.
"Last, you cannot possibly believe in the negative rights which are 'unalienable', and made 'unalienable' by the superior force of a creating being. If an Atheist 'believes' this, then he is co-opting a religious viewpoint that is not Atheist."
Sure I can. I can by looking at past attempts to control the populace absolutely, see how they failed and resulted in extreme suffering as well as collapse of the government, and be against future such suffering. Learning from previous attempts. I can believe that absolute State control is bad government without having to use a religious motivation for it. There are a great many atheist libertarians, you know. Regardless of how you think the world works.
"The Kinsey propanda supports sex with children; do you think that banning that is totalitarian?"
No. Consenting adults should have the right to Pursue Happiness as long as it doesn't trample on the rights of others. Children cannot consent. Neither can animals. Laws can and should protect them.
"Is there no area of personal restriction that is not totalitarian?"
To an extent, as long as you are not endangering others, the State should stay out of the private lives of CONSENTING ADULTS.
"Are cultures to be prohibited from protecting cultural values?"
Cultures are not static. They are always in motion. It should not the business of the State to keep the cultural zeitgeist from changing. That would be Big Government. Artificial imposition of the State upon the 'free market' of the cultural zeitgeist.
Ninety years ago racism was almost normal, as was anti-semitism. Even among people who were opposed to the Nazis. Should the State have protected these from fading away?
Forty years ago 'protecting cultural values' would have meant keeping black and white people from getting married.
The culture has changed and is changing as we speak.
"Or are cultural values an obscenity to be eliminated? Perhaps culture should have no values at all? No integrity, or other moral concepts, just anarchy?"
To eliminate cultural values would be the same thing as above. Artificial intrusion of the State into a free flowing and ever changing entity. Kids like hip hop these days and wear their pants baggy. Should the State keep them from doing this to 'protect culture?' Cultural values are what they are, and they are separate from the State. They arise in a 'free market' and they change as a 'free market.'
The State's ONLY purpose should be to keep anarchy from happening. Protect citizens from other citizens. Keep the peace. Protect the homeland from invasion. That's it. MAYBE provide a few public services, always minimal. MAYBE.
"Or possible you have your own personal set of morals that you want to see installed to apply to everyone?"
I don't want to install any morals on anyone, just like I don't want others to impose morals upon me. Unless, of course, this involves hurting others. Then the State is absolutely welcome to step in and stop it.
"Homosexuals have never, ever had an 'unalienable right' to marry, except under the current concepts of Leftist sanctification of perversion. "
They do, however, have an unalienable right to Pursue Happiness. If what makes them happy is getting married, two consenting adults getting married in their private life, why is the State telling them they can't do this? Oh that's right, because one particular religion thinks it's Bad, and somehow managed to get it's religious belief encoded into law.
But of course you think your religion is right and the correct way to behave and therefore should be law. But other religions, including secularism, think otherwise.
So who wins?
Well, how about this: does it involve the private lives of one or more consenting adults? Yes? Then keep Big Guv'ment out of it! You're absolutely free to think homosexuality is immoral all you like, but as long as you aren't being forced to have homosexual sex against your will, the State has no business interfering. If homosexuality is indeed immoral, then it's the job of Christianity to criticize it and not recognize it and not perform gay marriages.
That's not the job of the State.
"Totalitarian? In no way!"
You can't do x, y, and z in your own private life even though it's just you and your 100% consenting partner because we, the State, say you cannot. How is this not the very definition of totalitarian?
"Homosexuals are protected from being offended by their very own hate laws."
I'm not comfortable with hate laws. They are like totalitarianism in reverse.
"Anti-free speech is a totalitarian measure used by homosexuals against anyone who disagrees with them."
I'm not sure where you're getting anti-free speech from, but if it involves hate laws, then I probably partially agree with you. I think it might be a disagreeable but necessary measure for any oppressed group until they can get equal acceptance within government and the culture. Unfortunate that it has to be like that.
"So again I suspect that the rights you want us to have are different from the unalienable, negative rights of the constitution; that just leaves positive rights and totalitarianism."
Nope. I recognize that totalitarianism is a bad form of government that leads to suffering and one group in control. I recognize that all humans are weak when it comes to power, Christians and atheists alike, and I would like to keep power out of the hands of any one group. I recognize that State intrusion into the private lives of consenting adults is totalitarianism. I recognize that everyone should be free from the State telling them what to do in their private lives, regardless of your attempts to philosophically prove that I can't have this opinion.
Martin,
Actually, I agree with most of what you say. Your past position on matters seemed well to the Left; now you seem to embrace libertarianism (except for the source of moral force, which as an Atheist you likely reject).
The Libertarian depends to a very strong degree on the concept of moral force deriving from an external, non-human, power, not from intellectual dances that come and go. So I am not sure where you come down in all this.
Again, I do agree to a large extent with what you said, above. But I think there are limits that you don't seem to agree with, such as anarchy in one's own home, and between consenting adults.
And there is an issue with this idea, "What I'm objecting to are Christian (or any religious) beliefs being turned into law by the State."
American law has a long history of being dependent upon Judeo-Christian values, such as do not murder, etc. These extend in time back through British law. I doubt that you really want to eliminate any and all law which has a corresponding component in Judeo-Christianity. Rather, I suspect that you don't wish to have a state religion. Neither do a very high percentage of religious Americans. However freedom of religion is not the same as religion banned except for secularism.
You seem passionately committed to "absolutely anything goes", if it is in secret between consenting adults. I think there are limits, and enforcing those limits is a legitimate function of society.
"You can't do x, y, and z in your own private life even though it's just you and your 100% consenting partner because we, the State, say you cannot. How is this not the very definition of totalitarian?"
You are right, up to a point, and that point involves cultural drift and the mentally ill.
For example, it was recently revealed that certain people were actually willing to be killed in order to be fed to cannibal associates. To hinder this free choice activity would be called moral totalitarianism. But the behavior is deviant, deserving of psychiatric help. I repeat, is there no behavior between consenting adults that is not OK?
(at this point I am picking nits, it appears).
If the culture is the moral guide, then there is no moral guide, there is only unanchored social experimentation that moves toward evermore bizarre activities and beliefs. Coming from and living in a mild society driven by Judeo-Christian values, this drift might seem OK or even a relief - at first; but living with the unanticipated consequences of such random drift might not seem so "liberated". To think that a culture adrift would not be seized and manipulated into statism is, I think, naive.
Your final comment doesn't seem to address the issue you criticise:
"Atheists cannot intellectually embrace negative rights as
unalienable". You embrace negative rights? What authority does your embrace bestow on them in a culture adrift, in a society where the culture is the only arbiter of morals, of right and wrong?
The Atheist can't declare anything unalienable, because nothing is unalienable to the Atheist who rejects absolutes, cetainly moral absolutes.
So if he calls negative rights "correct" or "pragmatic", that is just one person's opinion. If he does call them "unalienable", then he steals a concept of extra-human force of authorization from the Judeo-Christian playbook.
What gives your particular statement of human rights its "force", its authority? Or perhaps you admit that it is personal opinion rather than a universal Truth? If it is not a universal Truth, why should it be applied universally? Or perhaps it need not be?
Martin, once again, thanks for your measured and thoughtful responses - this is an interesting thread...
"Actually, I agree with most of what you say. Your past position on matters seemed well to the Left; now you seem to embrace libertarianism (except for the source of moral force, which as an Atheist you likely reject)."
I always try to keep a foot (or at least a toe) in both Left and Right.
I feel when you get too deep into one ideology you become blind to flaws of that ideology and also blind to advantages of opposing ideologies.
On the Shortest Political Quiz I usually score medium libertarian with a notch to the right or left, depending on my mood. :)
"The Libertarian depends to a very strong degree on the concept of moral force deriving from an external, non-human, power, not from intellectual dances that come and go. So I am not sure where you come down in all this."
I don't see why an external Truth is necessary. If you try managing your personal finances a certain way, and you end up getting harassing calls from collection agencies and overdraft fees, it's possible to say 'Well, this clearly doesn't work. I guess I should try something different.'
Same with government. With the experience of the past under our belts, clearly totalitarianism doesn't work. You could say 'But if you atheists get into power, then nothing would stop you.' True, but that goes for any group. Totalitarianism opens up the possibility of Christian groups getting into power as well. Best to not let ANYBODY have absolute power.
I mean, to have a stable society with a high standard of living for everyone is a desirable end goal in itself that doesn't require a transcendental truth.
"However freedom of religion is not the same as religion banned except for secularism."
Religion is not banned and should NEVER be banned. The State should have ZERO opinion on the matter, period.
The State should NEVER say we are 'One Nation Under Allah,' or 'One Nation Under Xenu,' or 'One Nation Under Ganesh,' or 'One Nation Under God.' God with a capital 'G' is generally the God of Abraham, which means the State is essentially saying this is one nation under Christianity and Judaism.
Any individual should be absolutely free to say that as much as they want, but the State ITSELF should stay out of it because we all have to share it.
Neutral on religion does not mean anti religion.
Personally, though, I find the Pledge of Allegiance kind of creepy and wish it would just go away.
"You seem passionately committed to 'absolutely anything goes', if it is in secret between consenting adults. I think there are limits, and enforcing those limits is a legitimate function of society."
Certainly there are gray areas. Possibly some are even unsolvable.
"For example, it was recently revealed that certain people were actually willing to be killed in order to be fed to cannibal associates. To hinder this free choice activity would be called moral totalitarianism. But the behavior is deviant, deserving of psychiatric help. I repeat, is there no behavior between consenting adults that is not OK?"
And this may be one of them. However, I just can't shake the feeling that this situation should be between a person, his therapist, and his family, and possibly the courts to mediate a dispute. What business is it of the State? That whole Terry Schiavo situation was ridiculous. Congressional intervention? Really?!
"If the culture is the moral guide, then there is no moral guide, there is only unanchored social experimentation that moves toward evermore bizarre activities and beliefs."
I don't know if this is true. In the ancient world adult relationships with little boys was seen as a method of introducing young men to moral and cultural values. Now we see it as disgusting.
However, if you had been alive at the time you would have been a PART of that culture and not OUTSIDE it, and you most likely would have fought to preserve those 'cultural values.'
"To think that a culture adrift would not be seized and manipulated into statism is, I think, naive."
But it IS adrift, regardless, and will ALWAYS be adrift, and there's NOTHING you can do about it. Laws preserving the current culture will be dropped when the culture changes. The cultural zeitgeist leads the laws, not the other way around.
Witness current laws against oral sex in many states; at the time, it was to preserve cultural values, but the culture changed regardless of the law and the laws are left behind, unenforced and almost embarrassing by today's standards.
It was once illegal to be homosexual in Britain. Attitudes changed, and the laws followed suit. Attitudes will continue to change, and no amount of government intervention will stop it.
If Christians believe homosexuality to be immoral, this is what they should do: actively seek out homosexuals, invite them to their churches, witness to them, and try to bring them to Christ. Accept the ones that respond with open arms, and let the ones that don't go, while continuing to pray for them. THAT'S IT. That's what Christ Himself would do.
Forget the government!
"What gives your particular statement of human rights its 'force', its authority? Or perhaps you admit that it is personal opinion rather than a universal Truth? If it is not a universal Truth, why should it be applied universally? Or perhaps it need not be?"
See above. Thanks to history, we have witnessed many governments and we see what works and what doesn't. Western democracies generally show the greatest happiness and the most stability and best standards of living. Other forms of government, such as those that attempt to take away rights of the individual, have resulted in great suffering and unstable societies.
They don't work. Why use them?
Martin, thanks for engaging in this conversation.
I said,
"To think that a culture adrift would not be seized and manipulated into statism is, I think, naive."
Martin said,
But it IS adrift, regardless, and will ALWAYS be adrift, and there's NOTHING you can do about it. Laws preserving the current culture will be dropped when the culture changes. The cultural zeitgeist leads the laws, not the other way around.
Our culture is steered by the relentless assault of those whose need for elitism as a sop for their personal insufficiencies drives their hatred of freedom. A free culture must be protected from this assault. In our case, the use of parasitism in the pursuit of egalitarianism has brought us to this point, where our national heritage of freedom is now being made subservient to third world values. The cultural zeitgeist is being manipulated by the totalitarians-in-waiting. Drift was perhaps not the correct word: forced current of undertow better describes it.
Martin said,
If Christians believe homosexuality to be immoral, this is what they should do: actively seek out homosexuals, invite them to their churches, witness to them, and try to bring them to Christ. Accept the ones that respond with open arms, and let the ones that don't go, while continuing to pray for them. THAT'S IT. That's what Christ Himself would do.
I always have to grin when an Atheist speaks for Christ. An Atheist telling Christians what they “should” do is exactly the issue at hand: it is OK for an Atheist to dictate moral behavior to Christians, but not vice-versa. And I think you might not be up to date on how homosexuals receive such invitations. Christian witnesses no longer venture onto the streets of San Francisco. The ones who did were beaten until they were hospitalized, while the cops watched, and then they were arrested for hate crimes. Most churches are open to homosexuals in the fashion you mention; however to witness outside of a church has been made into a crime, so your suggestion is for Christians to engage in criminal behavior, at least in SF.
An aside concerning homosexuality; homosexuals are not tolerated by totalitarians. They are not only tolerated but are given special protection status in the USA. But they make the issue of "marriage" - not contractual equivalency but marriage itself - if denied them, into a "totalitarian" denial of their "rights". But what rights? God given unalienable rights? Hardly. These are new license, created to pacify a wealthy, hostile Leftist minority. So license can now be granted to any hostile group with money, and then be called "rights". The idea of rights itself has decayed. "Rights" that are relativist are merely seizures of power.
Martin said,
Thanks to history, we have witnessed many governments and we see what works and what doesn't. Western democracies generally show the greatest happiness and the most stability and best standards of living. Other forms of government, such as those that attempt to take away rights of the individual, have resulted in great suffering and unstable societies.
They don't work. Why use them?
Those other forms are not brought about by free choice, they are brought in by deception and lies followed by rapid judicious seizure of power which is then centralized by seemingly legal administrative moves at first, until such appearances of legality are no longer needed. By then the power is irrevocably concentrated in one elite group. There is no doubt that the totalitarian regimes in Enlightenment France, Russia/USSR and Germany acquired their power this way, posing as white knights, saviors.
This is why freedom cannot be released from constant vigilance and protection (heroic if need be). In our society the enemies of freedom are free; free to attack from any and all angles, and now they have been handed full control by the Obama / Alinski tactics of rousing the maleducated masses, and then using a race and victimhood vote to gain control. The swiftness of the takeover is mind-boggling.
Your attitude of relativism with respect to any current zeitgeist being acceptable just because it is current, frankly bewilders me. You accept no absolute tenets; is there nothing whatsoever that you would stand up and fight for? And if that is the case, is that then not the product of a century long social project designed to produce exactly this type of malleable compliance in the populace?
A populace without values that include the defense of freedom, will lose that freedom. A populace with no values at all except “do whatever” relativism is hopelessly doomed to subservience.
Societies that are free to choose their zeitgeist are uncommon in history. They are easily decayed and overrun. The principles that fight decay are not relative: integrity, responsibility, reliability, honesty. Our relativist society denies that these are good, much less right. Given that, decay and takeover are inevitable.
"I always have to grin when an Atheist speaks for Christ. An Atheist telling Christians what they 'should' do is exactly the issue at hand: it is OK for an Atheist to dictate moral behavior to Christians, but not vice-versa."
The only 'moral' I would like to dictate to Christians is this: don't use the government to legislate your religious beliefs, nor to promote them, nor to give them a higher standing above other religions. Other than that, do what thou wilt.
I'm not sure where you are seeing atheists dictate morals to Christians. Examples?
"...however to witness outside of a church has been made into a crime, so your suggestion is for Christians to engage in criminal behavior, at least in SF."
I'm skeptical of this. Do you have any specifics?
"But they make the issue of 'marriage' - not contractual equivalency but marriage itself - if denied them, into a 'totalitarian' denial of their 'rights'. But what rights? God given unalienable rights? Hardly."
This is EXACTLY why the government needs to stay out of religion and makes my libertarian position all that much stronger. You feel like they want to re-define the religious institution of marriage. You feel they are demanding special recognition.
Fine.
Then the government should only be involved in the contractual issues, and make this gender (and, I believe, number) neutral. Benefits, contracts, heirs, etc.
Marriage itself should then be free to be defined by the various religions as they see fit.
"...and now they have been handed full control by the Obama / Alinski tactics of rousing the maleducated masses, and then using a race and victimhood vote to gain control. The swiftness of the takeover is mind-boggling."
I had to painfully listen to the EXACT same ridiculous prognostications from the Left over the last eight years: Tyranny is upon us! Bush is taking away all our rights! He's just like Hitler! He's a dictator! He's going to cancel the election! Doom! Doom! Doom! End of the world! Fear! Fear! Fear! And blah blah blah...
Four or eight years from now, the Right may win again, and then the Left will repeat the above. And after that, the Left will win, and the Right will repeat the above.
Ad nauseum.
Let me paraphrase Jon Stewart: "You're confusing 'tyranny' with 'losing.'"
"Your attitude of relativism with respect to any current zeitgeist being acceptable just because it is current, frankly bewilders me. You accept no absolute tenets; is there nothing whatsoever that you would stand up and fight for?"
I would stand up and fight to keep the government out of private life. I HATE the drug war. I despise anti-prostitution laws (even though there DO need to be laws concerning human trafficking). I despise anti-gambling laws. I would despise a law against flag burning. I would fight against the government getting involved in foreign wars, although I would stand up and fight DIRECT invaders of the country.
"A populace without values that include the defense of freedom, will lose that freedom. A populace with no values at all except 'do whatever' relativism is hopelessly doomed to subservience."
You may be right about values, but these must come from within. They should NOT be legislated. You can't legislate generosity, kindness, etc.
As far as losing freedom goes, this value SHOULD be encoded into the fabric of the government, as it is to some degree in America. Term limits, checks and balances, etc. It's flawed, to be sure, but it has kept true dictatorship at bay.
"Societies that are free to choose their zeitgeist are uncommon in history."
EVERY society is free to choose its zeitgeist and in fact is an unstoppable force. Again, what do you think about the fact that racism was once the norm in this country? What do you think about the fact that it was once scandalous to say 'chicken breast?' That westward expansion of white people was God's will? That slavery was acceptable? Etc.
Should all these 'cultural values' have been artificially frozen in time by the State?
You said,
“I had to painfully listen to the EXACT same ridiculous prognostications from the Left over the last eight years”
The difference being that I have read un-revised history and can back up my statements with historical references if pushed to do so.
"...however to witness outside of a church has been made into a crime, so your suggestion is for Christians to engage in criminal behavior, at least in SF."
I'm skeptical of this. Do you have any specifics?
I posted about this last year, including news sources, I'll try to locate it.
You question whether Atheists assert moral demands on the religious. The religious are required to support abortion with their tax dollars; now they have to support embryonic destruction; it is apparent that embryonic trafficking is now legal; it will probably be declared legal to clone oneself, killing the clone to take its stem cells; Pharmacists being required to issue killing drugs as post sexual abortion-by-pill; shortly physicians in non-private hospitals will be required to perform abortions; the list goes on… this is just off the top of my head. Perhaps I should keep a list some where.
You said,
”The only 'moral' I would like to dictate to Christians is this: don't use the government to legislate your religious beliefs, nor to promote them, nor to give them a higher standing above other religions. Other than that, do what thou wilt.”
I reply,
”The only 'moral' I would like to dictate to Atheists is this: don't use the government to legislate your religious beliefs, nor to promote them, nor to give them a higher standing above other religions. Other than that, do what thou wilt.”
You said, re: marriage,
“Then the government should only be involved in the contractual issues, and make this gender (and, I believe, number) neutral. Benefits, contracts, heirs, etc.
Marriage itself should then be free to be defined by the various religions as they see fit”.
I agree with this. How about species neutral? This already exists and has for a long time. My cat can inherit everything if I so wish. But that is not what homosexuals want.
"A populace without values that include the defense of freedom, will lose that freedom. A populace with no values at all except 'do whatever' relativism is hopelessly doomed to subservience."
You may be right about values, but these must come from within. They should NOT be legislated. You can't legislate generosity, kindness, etc.
As far as losing freedom goes, this value SHOULD be encoded into the fabric of the government, as it is to some degree in America. Term limits, checks and balances, etc. It's flawed, to be sure, but it has kept true dictatorship at bay.”
You have chosen a certain value to be a government concern, despite claiming that values SHOULD never be government’s concern. The reality is that every government that has a written charter has values; it is inescapable. Perhaps what I think are values are not the same as your concept.
When I think of values I think mainly of personal traits, not political-economic engagements. Certainly slavery was evil, but it was not a personal value. It was an economic entanglement that was attached to racism.
The personal values I think of include those to which I referred before: integrity, responsibility, reliability, honesty and related qualities that lead to trustworthiness.
Was racism a quality that feeds trustworthiness? Racism was accepted as a fully scientific fact. I don't see it as a necessary moral value, even back then. To eliminate slavery when racial inferiority was considered factual was to interfere in the private matters of an individual... anti-libertarian. So a new value has been decreed by the government: racial equality.
"EVERY society is free to choose its zeitgeist and in fact is an unstoppable force.
Martin, either we don't use the same definition of zeitgeist, or perhaps you'd like to rethink this generalization... or give me your definition. I see zeitgeist as a metric of the status of a social condition. The zeitgeist is not a force. It is defined variously as the spirit of the time, the spirit characteristic of an age or generation, etc.
As for Manifest Destiny and westward expansion being cultural values, I think perhaps they are more political epiphenomena than values. The values that drove them included freedom, private property, personal improvement, etc. The west was not considered legally owned by the aboriginals who were considered migratory and racially inferior, just like the buffalo. And again, racism was scientific.
And "chicken breast"; that is an artifact of the value of modesty, one that has been eroded almost entirely. Here you would be right to argue the question of how much modesty is the "just right" amount. But to deny that modesty is a value? (especially one of my personal hot buttons, intellectual modesty / humility).
You have outlined values that are important to you, including ones worth fighting for. There are, then, even for you, certain values that are necessary to be maintained in a free state, to the point of necessary violence to maintain them. So you seem to agree, that yes there are values that should be frozen into a culture, and if necessary, codified by the state. We have that: the U.S. Constitution. If the Constitution doesn’t map onto your idea of rights and responsibilities, it can be amended if you can convince the right people to do so. This makes a contract with the people to allow them to push into codification whatever pieces of zeitgeist come to be sensible (e.g. women’s rights). This contractual codification of values is being usurped by radical judicial adventurism and has broken the contract with the people.
BTW, Jon Stewart was wrong; Bush did erode the rights of the individual as well as outrageously expand the powers of the state – a perfect set-up into which Obama stepped.
And again, thanks for the conversation, it is interesting...
"The difference being that I have read un-revised history and can back up my statements with historical references if pushed to do so."
And my Leftie friends said the exact same thing. They handed me all kinds of proof. Regardless, I PROMISE you, four to eight years from now we will get a new president and life will go on, same as always. And if you don't like the things Obama institutes, the next Rightie will reverse most of them. Mark my words. I think it all balances out, to a degree.
"I posted about this last year, including news sources, I'll try to locate it."
Please.
"You question whether Atheists assert moral demands on the religious. The religious are required to support abortion with their tax dollars; now they have to support embryonic destruction; it is apparent that embryonic trafficking is now legal; it will probably be declared legal to clone oneself, killing the clone to take its stem cells; Pharmacists being required to issue killing drugs as post sexual abortion-by-pill; shortly physicians in non-private hospitals will be required to perform abortions; the list goes on… this is just off the top of my head. Perhaps I should keep a list some where."
I agree that religious people should not be forced to support abortion with their tax money, and in fact the whole issue is a gray area for me. I lean against it being illegal, though, per se.
I earlier said to you that human life is a continuum, from person, to egg and sperm, to fetus, to baby. Why is a fetus worthy of protection when a sperm and egg cell are not? It's ALL human life. I see the distinction coming into play when human life acquires those properties that make a human human: personhood. A fetus has no personhood because it has no brain, just like a sperm cell. So I have problems getting behind conservatives on this, although I'm pretty agnostic on the whole thing.
"The only 'moral' I would like to dictate to Atheists is this: don't use the government to legislate your religious beliefs, nor to promote them, nor to give them a higher standing above other religions. Other than that, do what thou wilt."
Ha! Let's continue the recursion! But why then does MY money say 'In God We Trust?' I certainly don't trust in Him. Why is the State telling me I do? Churches are free to tell me that, but the State shouldn't. For the atheist equivalent, you would have to have money that says 'In No God Do We Trust.' Instead, how about this: say NOTHING ABOUT IT AT ALL, Mr Government.
"I agree with this. How about species neutral? This already exists and has for a long time. My cat can inherit everything if I so wish. But that is not what homosexuals want."
Animals, children, etc are not able to consent. They should be protected by laws.
But what is it, then, that homosexuals want? I know you'll probably say that they want to re-define marriage. But if marriage is up to the religions and not the State, then they WILL get the full blessings of, say, the Lutheran church.
"Martin, either we don't use the same definition of zeitgeist, or perhaps you'd like to rethink this generalization... or give me your definition. I see zeitgeist as a metric of the status of a social condition. The zeitgeist is not a force. It is defined variously as the spirit of the time, the spirit characteristic of an age or generation, etc."
I am using zeitgeist to mean 'what the culture generally believes and values at any one time.' Right now, our zeitgeist is: Islamic terrorists are our fear replacement for the Soviets, abortion and creation/evolution are cultural controversies, allowing children to see naked breasts is BAD BAD BAD, sex is taboo, f*** sh*** cu** are the current Words You Cannot Say, supporting the troops is good, shaking hands is a way of greeting someone, etc.
Some of the above will change COMPLETELY in 200 years. Some of it won't.
And my point is you have no way of knowing what you currently believe/value will be laughed at embarrassingly 200 years from now, as we now laugh at powdered wigs, Eugenics, etc.
So, yes, my point is more about cultural beliefs than actual core values per se.
"As for Manifest Destiny and westward expansion being cultural values, I think perhaps they are more political epiphenomena than values. The values that drove them included freedom, private property, personal improvement, etc. The west was not considered legally owned by the aboriginals who were considered migratory and racially inferior, just like the buffalo. And again, racism was scientific."
But if you were living at the time, you most likely would have fully accepted the white dominance of the land. And if someone had come along and said it was wrong and would change, you probably would not have believed them. And you might have even been fearful that they were right, that things would change, that white people might lose their dominance. So perhaps you would have sought to get the State to encode Manifest Destiny into law to keep it from changing.
And you would have been wrong to do so.
Please understand, I'm not implying that you yourself are prone to racism. Only that you would have been a man of your time, as you are now a man of your time. What such opinions do you hold now could you be wrong about? And that you would be wrong to seek the government to encode into law?
So the core values can remain, but those values drive people to encode into law what they perceive to be the current expression of them. The expression of the values then is what changes.
"And 'chicken breast'; that is an artifact of the value of modesty, one that has been eroded almost entirely. Here you would be right to argue the question of how much modesty is the "just right" amount. But to deny that modesty is a value? (especially one of my personal hot buttons, intellectual modesty / humility)."
But again, at the time if you had gone around screaming 'chicken breast,' people might have gotten very angry and might have gotten laws made to keep you from saying it. Not to preserve modesty, but to keep you from specifically saying the words 'chicken breast.' As we now have laws to prevent people from saying certain words on shock-jock radio programs.
*sigh* And then the culture will change. 'F***' will no longer be Bad. The laws will look silly. And new words will be Bad. And new laws will be made.
And around and around we go.
That is what I mean by the cultural zeitgeist always changing.
"This contractual codification of values is being usurped by radical judicial adventurism and has broken the contract with the people."
But sometimes it's judicial activism that is required to strike down bad laws. Jim Crow laws for example required court intervention in the democratic process. And I think we can both agree it was a good thing they did. Tyranny of the Majority, much?
"BTW, Jon Stewart was wrong; Bush did erode the rights of the individual as well as outrageously expand the powers of the state – a perfect set-up into which Obama stepped."
And continues, apparently. Although I haven't been keeping up with politics recently. I still think it's too early to really judge Bush, much less Obama. I recommend you see "W." Interesting take on George.
"And again, thanks for the conversation, it is interesting..."
No problem. I followed you here from Atheism is Dead because the current blogger there NEVER engages in discussion. The Atheism is Dead Blog Is Dead. :)
Martin,
I am unable to find my reference to the homosexual beatings of the christian evangelizers in SF; so although I know it is so, I retract it as an argument due to lack of documentation.
Stan
Martin,
You said,
"So, yes, my point is more about cultural beliefs than actual core values per se."
Then once again we probably agree on the substance, if not the details. My concern is not so much for the loss of certain cultural customs (witch dunking) as it is for the loss of the core values which define the nature of the nation. By this I mean the change from a nation of self-motivated entrepeneurs to a nation of "victims" demanding entitlements, and such. Essentially from believing in personal strength to believing in personal weakness.
In other words, the parasitism that has been acculturated to the point that the biggest institutions are now parasitic, and their parasitism is being both caused and fed by the Feds. This is not the type of thing that four years and a new election will affect, because there are no conservative politicians left - the Repubs are just the same as the Leftocrats - and the voting population is being gerrymandered for total control by the entitled parasites.
Once again, I enjoy and appreciate your conversation, and I hope you stick around....
Stan
April 12, 2009 5:39 PM
Post a Comment