Thursday, May 20, 2010

Accellerating the Culture Clash

Today is Everyone Draw Mohammed Day. The idea behind this heresy-in-your-face is explained quite well by Zombie. And a cartoon archive is located here.

After some initial hesitation I support this idea and effort. There seems little choice, given the totalitarian death squad approach of the Muslim murderers and arsonists. As Zombie explains, there are next steps and steps after that; the Muslim capacity for being offended is total. Their response is self-righteous violence and death.

This approach offers two things. First, it spreads the risk. Second, it allows the Muslim to know that the 21st century western world will not grovel in fear.

Another thing. As Zombie points out, it will likely bring on the conflict sooner, an advantage over waiting until the 6th century barbarians acquire nuclear capability. It truly does appear that the conflict is both inevitable and that it will be catastrophic. It doesn't have to be that way except for two things: the words of Mohammed, and the uncritical minds of Muslim totalitarians.

In his book, "The Closing of the Muslim Mind: How Intellectual Suicide Created The Modern Islamist Crisis", Robert R. Reilly documents the internal Islamic war between reason and revelation, and how revelation won, stamping out reason in the Islamic world.

Reilly:
"Neither communism nor fascism has worked for the Arabs - because they have not worked for anyone - but the Islamists have ingested their totalitarian programs and mixed them with their Ash'arite interpretations of Islam. That is why one can compare the features of these ideologies and even some of the language they use almost exactly. As Maulana Maududi wrote,

'In reality Islam is a revolutionary ideology and programme which seeks to alter the social order of the whole world and rebuild it in conformity with its own tenets and ideals. 'Muslim' is the title of that International Revolutionary Party organized by Islam to carry into effect its revolutionary programme. And 'Jihad' refers to that revolutionary struggle and utmost exertion which the Islamic Party brings into play to achieve this objective.'

With changing the only two words, 'Islam' and 'Muslim', to either 'Nazism' or 'communism', and then rereading the sentence above, one will immediately see the nearly complete ideological affinity between them, as no other word changes are necessary to Nazi or communist revolutionary points of view."
[note 1]

It is also possible to see the reason for the affinity of western Leftists and their One World Government for the one-worlders in the Middle East. The Left is drawn to any and all totalitarians from Castro and Chavez to the Palestinian rocket launchers.

While Reilly confers some of the blame for Islamic totalitarianism on the western varieties that fed into Islam in the 20th century, it is also apparent from the Qur'an that Mohammed himself was a violent despot, and that Islam has that built into its most revered foundations. Violence and Islam are handmaidens: they will not be separated. So if the western nations and culture are to survive the exponential Islamic threat, ultimately Islam will have to be defeated, thoroughly. Perhaps not exactly now, but the time is coming. And it won't be pretty.

It's not that they won't leave us alone so that we could just ignore them. They cannot.


Note 1: Reilly, "The Closing of the Muslim Mind", pg 181.

29 comments:

Abdullah said...

Dont remember from where I got the link of ur website.English is not my mother tongue so i aint that good in that but u know i skimmed through ur site and articles.
Felt good when i heard that u turned thiest but the sad part is that u turned a christian.

Im a Muslim alhamdulillah.Lets put it straight i totally disagree with this article or whtever u call it.

Perhaps u havent studied Islam.

Stan said...

Abdullah,
Thanks for your comment, and welcome.

I welcome disagreement and I encourage you to express your points of disagreement here for discussion. For example, which points do you disagree with, and what is your reason for disagreement; in other words, you disagree based on what evidence?

I have read the Qur'an. It has been a couple of years back, now. But I was highly impressed by the calls for violence against all non-Muslims. And then there was the call for allowing "people of the book" to live, but only if they pay Muslims a tax. Others: death.

Is this not true?

If you have read much of this site you probably know that I favor the use of the human capacity for analytical thought. This is not possible of course without free will, the capacity to choose. Humans are endowed with that capacity also.

It is apparent to western minds that Islam, per the Qur'an, does not allow free choice, but endorses forced choice. This violates rationality, in that the individual's choice is reduced to an automatic response without the ability to assess the coherence of the available choices.

I would be interested to hear your response to this, and especially whether you chose Islam for its coherence, after studying other major theisms.

Again, thanks for your response and I look forward to the discussion.

By the way, I am not a "Christian" in the dogmatic, ecclesiastic sense of the word. I am a student of Jesus, and I have also studied Muhammed via the Qur'an. I have also studied secular philosophy and Atheism. I am still studying these things.

I'd be interested to know: What is the history of your studies?

Abdullah said...

"I have read the Qur'an"
Thats nice Mashallah..did u read a translation or u know arabic..??
If translation then who was the translator..??

U said "But I was highly impressed by the calls for violence against all non-Muslims. And then there was the call for allowing "people of the book" to live, but only if they pay Muslims a tax. Others: death."

Not against all non-muslims but it was against who drew the cartoon of our Beloved Prophet salallaho alahye wasallam.
Atleast i dont know of any such verse in the Quran (talking in the context)

Belief in Jesus pbuh is a part of our belief as well.

Alhamdulillah i have studied different religions not in such great detail.

We respect Prophet Muhammad salallao aleyhe wasallam and love him more than our wives,children,wealth etc.His love is second to Allah.And certainly this caricature issue which is raised up again and again,strikes at the very core of our beleif and passion that we hold for Holy prophet salallaho aleye wasallam.

Plus wht west thinks of Islam just because of handful people or a militant group is not the right approach.U need to see the teachings and peoplle who actually are following it rather than those who twist the teachings.

Moreover wht Muslims are being blamed of preferring the dark age rather being a modernist is no true.Infact its the other way around.It is the west who are hostile towards muslims.Sadly.

I dont know whats ur location but i certainly invite u to Pakistan.I'd love to meet you.And ill arrange a sitting with a religious scholar who himself was born and raised in states.

If u want to listen some of his audio lectures visit this url http://www.islamicspirituality.org/

Or u can listen to Sheikh AbdulHakim Murad,Sheikh Nuh Haa Mim Keller.

Abdullah said...

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/
I'd suggest u to go through this site as well.
Hopefully it will clear ur doubts Inshallah.

Stan said...

Abdullah,
Thank you for your response. I will go to those sites as you suggest.

The Qur'an I read was a triple translation available on the internet; three translations were presented, side by side. Each verse was translated independently by three scholars, and could be read next to the other translations of the same verse.

If you are suggesting that the Qur'an is unintelligible unless the Arabic language version is used, why should that be so - unless thoughts expressed in Arabic are not translatable or intelligible in any other language? Are concepts contained in the sentences of the Arabic language not translatable to sentences expressing those same concepts in other languages? Is it not possible for a bilingual peson such as yourself to express the sentences of the Qur'an in English?

I value your comments here, and I would like to know if you would translate some of the problematic verses of the Qur'an for me. I don't have them at hand, but I will find them and hopefully you will be so kind as to translate their meaning in your own words.

Also, which would you choose, if the following two choices contradict each other: a)revelation, or b)reason based on logic and coherence?

Thanks for your participation...
Stan

Stan said...

Abdullah,
A question: When you rank the love you have in this order: 1) Allah; 2) the prophet; 3) wives, children, wealth, etc., are you giving your personal ranking system, or are you speaking for all Muslims?

And this. you said,
"Moreover wht Muslims are being blamed of preferring the dark age rather being a modernist is no true.Infact its the other way around.It is the west who are hostile towards muslims.Sadly."

If this is a response to my question above, I don't understand the answer you give. Here is the question again, could you respond to the free will issue?

"It is apparent to western minds that Islam, per the Qur'an, does not allow free choice, but endorses forced choice. This violates rationality, in that the individual's choice is reduced to an automatic response without the ability to assess the coherence of the available choices."

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you.

Stan

Abdullah said...

You said "If you are suggesting that the Qur'an is unintelligible unless the Arabic language version is used, why should that be so - unless thoughts expressed in Arabic are not translatable or intelligible in any other language?"
I didnt mean that.There are many translations available in the market.Its not necessary that every translation gives u the correct meaning as it was understood and practiced by Prophet Muhammad salallaho alahye wasallam,his companions may Allah be pleased with them and our predecessors.

"I would like to know if you would translate some of the problematic verses of the Qur'an for me. I don't have them at hand, but I will find them and hopefully you will be so kind as to translate their meaning in your own words."

See thats the point,im no one to transalte the Quran and to write the exegisis of the text.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/7c682c3f-cd61-441c-a87f-6c9ba5e62c28/english_quraan_mufti_taqi
This translation would do.

Abdullah said...

"Also, which would you choose, if the following two choices contradict each other: a)revelation, or b)reason based on logic and coherence?"

I'll choose revealation thats because reasoning based on logic and coherence can be wrong at times but certainly my Creator Allah will never be wrong.He knows whts right and whts wrong for me.Therefore ill submit to the Creator.
And Islam can never go against logic and reasoning.

Abdullah said...

"Also, which would you choose, if the following two choices contradict each other: a)revelation, or b)reason based on logic and coherence?"

I'll choose revealation thats because reasoning based on logic and coherence can be wrong at times but certainly my Creator Allah will never be wrong.He knows whts right and whts wrong for me.Therefore ill submit to the Creator.
And Islam can never go against logic and reasoning.It might be possible that we fail to understand something or may be science and reasoning might not prove Islams point but certainly in the long run Islam is always superior to anyother thing.

Abdullah said...

Again im advising u to go through the translation and the sites ive mentioned.Im not a scholar so i might flaw but certainly religious text will Inshallah guide u better.

Stan said...

Abdullah,
Again I thank you for your participation here.

Here are some of the concerns that westerners have about Islam. If you have evidence to counter or refute these concerns, please submit them - I thank you in advance for that. Our concerns are evidence-based, and hopefully are not prejudicial. Western society is based on freedom and the freedom of association and free worship as conscience dictates.

The evidence below suggests that is not the case for Islam and that Islam is capable of extreme violence to counter those western beliefs.

I submit first of all that westerners recognize that the vast majority of Muslims do not engage in violence, that they have families and they pursue their daily lives peacefully. Yet for reasons that are outlined below, westerners suspect that, if forced to choose, then these people would choose, not a peaceful free society, but a sharia government emplaced violently, a religious dictatorship. It is recognized in the west that Islam is not just a religion, it is also a political system, a justice system, and a one-world-under-Islam worldview.

At the top of the list of concerns is the violence that is apparent - not implied - in Islamic areas of the world. Even amongst Muslims, Shias and Sunnis are killing each other regularly. There is a uniquely Islamic idea that Allah will favor those who bomb themselves and dozens of strangers into oblivion, while leaving many more maimed for life. There is slave taking and human trafficking that is Muslim driven, especially in Africa. Your own country, Pakistan, was formed by international agreement due to the inability of Muslims to accommodate the Hindu believers in India; so Pakistan was created as Muslim haven. In north Africa, most violence seems to be Muslim created and driven, with violent government overthrows and genocide of entire villages and sectors with rapes and tortures common.

Most concerning to westerners is the threat by many Islamic nations to "wipe Israel off the map". Israel's main violation against Islam is that it exists, and that it tries to protect itself. The outrageous charges against Israel and Jews that are made, even in mosques the USA, are false; they are inflammatory lies designed to increase the hatred of Jews and Israel, and they are calls to violence. (This is a case where rationality needs to have precedence over revelation: revelation is subject to the errors human interpretation and internal inaccuracies due to prejudicial bias of the humans receiving the revelation).

If there are Muslim leaders calling for peaceful coexistence with non-believers, and condemning Islamic violence with words of peace from the Qur'an, that is transparent to us in the west. Islamic leaders such as the Saudis profit from western energy use, yet still allow the teaching of hate for us and our culture to their children in Wahabbi madrassas. This sort of paradox within Islamic nations renders them incomprehensible to western minds, and therefore trust is not possible and suspicion rises exponentially.

When the economic structures in the west fail in the coming probable collapse, our concern is that the resulting western weakness will be seen by Muslims as an opportunity to attack. This will turn a chaotic situation into a war in the streets, towns and homes of our western nations. There is currently no reason to believe that this is not so. The evidence of Muslim violence is too strong to ignore.

The west can understand Islam primarily by the evidence that Islam creates for the west to observe. If there is other evidence, or if the evidence is false, we would very much like to know it. If the above observations are false, why are they false, and what is the truth?

Again thank you for your participation here. Your thoughts on this matter are appreciated.

Stan

Abdullah said...

I can understand ur fears.After reading out the commentary of the Quran that i sugggested u,im sure all ur questions will be answered Inshallah.
Its been a nice discussion.

Give me ur email address for further correspondence.

Stan said...

Abdullah,
My email address is at the top right of this blog, feel free to email me.

However, for most commentary, I usually insist on the use of the blog comments in order that all readers can view and participate in discussions of any and all topics. That really is the purpose that have here, universal participation.

The email is available of course, and you may use it if you prefer.

One quick question please... How am I to know that the source for the Qur'an you recommend is truly representative and not sanitized for western consumption? Without a personal knowledge of historical Arabic, we in the west are stuck with the contradicting opinions of two camps as to which interpretation is correct.

And as I have mentioned previously, the evidence that violence is promoted within the Qur'an comes from observing actual Muslim activities by Muslims who think that violence is, indeed, there in the Qur'an.

This conundrum is a difficult barrier to breach, especially with the general silence of supposedly moderate Muslims with regard to violent activities of the activists.

The horror at the Muslim invasion of Beslan; the Muslim cheering as multi-nationals were smashed at the World Trade Center; the evidence is mounting.

I look forward to communicating with you...

Stan

Abdullah said...

The question u posted is a very valid one.Point is that that uve studies different translations which according to u show a very ugly face of Islam.
When ull go through ull realise wht Islam is urself.

I know its confusing but then its about studying.Styduing seep.

James said...

"If you are suggesting that the Qur'an is unintelligible unless the Arabic language version is used, why should that be so - unless thoughts expressed in Arabic are not translatable or intelligible in any other language? Are concepts contained in the sentences of the Arabic language not translatable to sentences expressing those same concepts in other languages? Is it not possible for a bilingual peson such as yourself to express the sentences of the Qur'an in English?"

Sometimes some concepts and words have meanings too deep to be conveyed with a one or two word translation. This is why a translation by itself can cause some people to misunderstand certain verses. So a translation alone is not enough, but a commentary on the text is also needed. Even this is not enough as it really needs a teacher to explain the different interpretations and deeper meanings.

"Islamic leaders such as the Saudis profit from western energy use, yet still allow the teaching of hate for us and our culture to their children in Wahabbi madrassas."

Just to clarify...The schools in Saudi don't generally don't promote terrorism, suicide bombing, rebellion, etc. Perhaps there are some 'underground' schools, or teachers, who promote it there, but it is not at all a standard. The Saudi royal family do enjoy a close relationship with Western powers and so they will and do bend to Western pressure. On top of this they also want to maintain power and therefore they oppress any teachings of rebellion against the rulers.

I'm sure some of the teachers there speak against the practices of non-Muslims (alcohol, Atheism, lifestyles, etc), particularly in the West. I am unsure to the extent though of how widespread the teaching of hating non-Muslims is though. I've met many University students from Saudi and none of them seem to express any hatred towards non-Muslims, although they disagree and dislike certain cultural aspects.

Generally, amongst 'Wahabis' and other Muslims, I find it rare that they hate non-Muslims. Many have relationships with non-Muslims, be it neighbours, colleges, friends, etc... Of course, some extreme Internet warriors might show hatred, but the Internet provides anonymity to immature people.

I don't think hatred of non-Muslims in the Muslim world is unique to Islam. It is similar to hatred of Muslims in the West. People fear attacks on their way of life and fear oppression. Muslims fear that the Western powers will enforce their culture on the Islamic world and will oppress the Muslims. Non-Muslims also fear that Islam is attacking their way of life.

I'm not that knowledgeable on these issues, so please excuse me for my ignorance, but I thought I would try to help clarify some issues with what I've seen/experienced.

You might be interested in these texts on Islamic belief:

http://www.marifah.net/articles/sanusicreed-abuadam.pdf
http://marifah.net/articles/Al-Tahawi.pdf

Stan said...

I am unaware of western theo/political leaders vowing to obliterate any Muslim nation from the map, nor vowing to install western culture by force in Muslim countries. The reverse however, is true.

It is dangerous in my opinion to believe that Muslims share the same rational processes and teleology with the west. It is demonstrable that Muslims are involved in a high proportion of the violence in the world, and that it is in the name of Allah.

I am unaware of any Muslim leader in the USA categorically denouncing the reductive jihad-as-war; what they say is that we misunderstand, that jihad is not war, while it obviously is war for a substantial portion of Islam. We do not misunderstand. We observe the evidence.

Yes, I have met peaceful Muslims, peaceful Iranians, etc. I have also read the books of ex-Muslims, frightened for their lives, who tell of their lives and experiences as Muslims, including schooling in jihad-as-war and hatred for non=Muslims.

Who to believe? Why not let the evidence speak here: Muslim societies are violent, as is ours. But our society does not promote violence against strangers as a religious principle. There is a significant proportion of Islam that does so, with religious rewards as well as monetary. If we assume that there is a corresponding proportion of Muslims that truly believe in peace with non-Muslims (dubious but possible), then they will ultimately have to conquer the violent ones, perish or succumb to cowardly silence; if they perish, then we are next on the list after Israel ("first Saturday, then Sunday", as they say).

If warranted, I can provide evidence for these views. That is not the normal direction for this blog, but still...

James said...

How do you understand 'obliterating a nation'? I feel that you may be misunderstanding what was said.

Understanding the phrase in the correct context, I feel similar words (and actions) have been used on the Saddam Regime.

Leaders of Muslim majority countries though can hardly be used as an example to show that Muslims hate (or want to kill) all non-Muslims. Many of these leaders imprison, torture and oppress the Muslims.

If they speak against the West, its probably just to gain the support of the people, but not what they truly represent.

The people cling to this because like their Western counter-parts, they fear the other side of the world and its strange customs.

Jihad aside, do you believe people have the right to defend their land from invaders? If someone defends their land in the name of nationalism, is it then ok?

While I have not read the books of ex-Muslims, and I'm sure there are truthful recounts in them, I do know that people like to read stories of those who escaped oppressive regimes. So I would take what they say lightly as some of them have lied (Ayaan Hirsi Ali is one of them).

It would be interesting to take a visit to some Muslim majority countries and listen to the people and their views on violence. There is a book where someone did this but I can't remember the name.

Overall though, you can't easily compare here with there. Many of the Muslim majority countries are in much poorer economical state than the West. Many have experienced, or are experiencing wars and government oppression. If America were in this condition, I'm sure Americans would be more violent, and incorporate their religion into this.

At the end of the day though you can't expect this world to live in peace. People are always going to having opposing views, and others will be driven by other factors (greed, pride, etc). There have been periods in Islamic history where non-Muslims and Muslims lived together in harmony amongst the majority in society, and there have been times when non-Muslims have been oppressed.

Perhaps we could continue this via email. I know that you previously mentioned that you prefer to use the blog but it is easier to keep in touch via email. We might learn some things from each other which might contribute towards future postings, so it won't be left in private.

Stan said...

James said,
Jihad aside, do you believe people have the right to defend their land from invaders? If someone defends their land in the name of nationalism, is it then ok?

Here is where the Muslims muddy the waters. According to the Hamas charter, (remember Hamas is legally elected):

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

http://mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html

The Charter contains more language like this:

"Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)."

Article seven.

Article 15 begins with:
"When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters."

Article 15 ends with,
"I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill. (told by Bukhari and Muslim)."

Article 22 includes,
" They also used the money to establish clandestine organizations which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests. Such organizations are: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs, B'nai B'rith and the like. All of them are destructive spying organizations. They also used the money to take over control of the Imperialist states and made them colonize many countries in order to exploit the wealth of those countries and spread their corruption therein.

Stan said...

I should address this: Ayaan Hirsi Ali and lies. I have not read anything by Ali, but I am aware of the massive anger toward her. Exactly what are her lies, and what then is the actual truth?

James said...

From Wikipedia about the charter:

"Senior British diplomat and former British ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006". Greenstock also stated that Hamas is not intent on the destruction of Israel."

From what I understand, those narrations from the Prophet Muhammad are referring to events after the Dajjal (Anti-Christ), and should not be applied to current day events.

The beginning of article 15 seems to be promoting Jihad in the defensive sense. I don't see anything wrong with it.

As for the ending of article 15, I could not find such a narration in the books of Imam Muslim and Bukhari.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali lied to gain asylum in the Netherlands.

Probably the reason for anger towards her is because she seems to have an unrealistic image of the West in her head and is too bent on attacking Islam.

James said...

I think that I would take what Sir Jeremy Greenstock has to say about the charter over 'many Israelis'.

Regarding Ali, she lied as I previously mentioned, to gain asylum in the Netherlands. She lied about her name, her age and lied about her story, claiming that she lived through five civil wars in Somalia.

She also claimed that her marriage was forced, yet this is contested by her former husband and family. Actually her husband came to Holland and she told him she did not want to continue the marriage and so he left without harming her.

For further reading/viewing:

http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8663231

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1775563,00.html

As I said, be careful in taking from these people. Upon viewing their works, they speak to please the West. Over the past decade more and more have come out of the woodworks. They gain popularity due to the image that has been engraved in our minds, probably lingering from the times of colonialism (i.e. we are the civilized brining civilization to the uncivilized). The image of a person living under the oppressive rule of Islam and then escaping to the freedom of the West perhaps gives people the reassurance that we are the most just and moral people on the planet.

So do their words hold weight? They could, but like with anything, dig deeper.

Stan said...

James,
Thanks for the links, I'll look into it. You're right, we are ripe for being played in the manner you suggest. It does seem odd that one would risk life and limb to do it though.

Stan

James said...

No problem. Thanks for looking into it.

Also, another link you may also want to check out:

http://www.garoweonline.com/artman2/publish/Features_34/Somalia_Meeting_with_Ayan_Hirsi_Ali_gazette.shtml

I'm sure she and others like her are somewhat protected. Of course the threat exists of someone trying to murder them but I don't think someone randomly from the public would try to kill them. If you kill someone then you not only risk your own life (death penalty, or imprisonment) but you also feed into the image of Muslim's being savages, and thus harming the community as a whole.

Anyway, they could die from an uncountable amount of things, this just adds one more to the list. Why become president? Why drive cabs? Why build houses? They all come with risks. Well, the bills have to be paid someway or another.

I think for some the idea of death just goes straight past them.

Stan said...

Ok, thanks for the link.

You said,
"...but you also feed into the image of Muslim's being savages, and thus harming the community as a whole."

I haven't noticed this slowing them down at all.

I've built houses. Even breaking a leg is remote. It's a matter of personal responsibility. It seems to me that attacking Islam is an altogether different animal. True, we all die. But most of us don't kick over hogs at a biker bar.

Stan said...

I do agree with the observer's comment that a debate would be better, in the sense that if she is lying, then a correction could be made publicly, and then double checked for accuracy.

My reading of the Qur'an appeared to suggest extreme suppression of women. (and non-Muslims). I am suspicious when that is denied without specifics to back it up.

James said...

I would think it depends how you define freedom when talking about suppression.

Psychologically and physically men and women are different, therefore it cannot be expected that they can perform the same tasks.

In particular, which verses give you the impression of extreme suppression?

Stan said...

Actually it is the honor killings, especially of raped women. Honor killings seem to be almost all of women. This practice is terrorism against women.

I'd have to read the entire Qur'an again to find all the verses. I think Surah 4 was one source, as I recall, but it has been several years since I read it.

Are you saying that your definition of freedom is such that you do not observe suppression of Muslim women?

Mohammed said...

This is a very interesting dicussion, and I commend James for his insightful comments on the subject of Islam which I feel has become more or less an 'unknown' and brazenly 'exotic' element in the West.

Stan,

**Actually it is the honor killings..... women.**

This can be attributed more to Arab/Kurdish/Turkish mores than Islamic law. There is nothing - I say this without hesitation - nothing in Islamic law, that would permit honor killings. There is a process, there is examination - and it is an ardous process. I think one thing Westerners keep forgetting is that Islam is very much a religion of legality and Law. The image presented by certain apocalyptic and militant groups in Somalia, Iraq or elsewhere, is not borne out of true understand.


**I'd have to read the entire Qur'an again to find all the verses....freedom is such that you do not observe suppression of Muslim women?**

Surat al-Nisa deals with legal issues concerning inheritance.

A few comments on reading the Quran: I do not suggest for anyone to read the Quran headon - the Quran is not like the Bible or Uphanishads in anyway. It is of a different vein. As Ar-Rumi said, it is a bride that unveils herself only to those who truly appreciate her. You must not only have a translation, but multiple commentaries, as well as understanding the Laws of Naskh and Mawsuk, adding to that understanding the history of the Suras and verses. Otherwise, your going to understand the verses out of context - concerning women, concerning violence (the comment of the author of this article really fails to understand the nuances - but who can blame him when he gleans his sources from distorted works?) and the place of Man in this world as such.

Is there an oppression of women? This is a difficult question to answer since the relationship between Men and Women arent fixed in the interpretation of the Divine Law. For some, there is no doubt a need to place women beyond the reach of men, but then, does this not contradict the mobility of women one notes in the tradition? Or the generally liberal dispensations and interactions of the Prophet with women? Did he not exhtort the faithful in his sermon of the last Hajj to be kind and good to women?
There are contested views and arguments, but for the most part, the Islamic vision sees a Divine Order for society. Not a burdensome heirarchy, but a contentment of place and will. A woman is not intrinsically less than a man in terms of the spirit, and neither will I argue on this platform that she is of any less capacities than her male counterpart (Islam does not purport that) but that the sexes are different exoterically and must have boundaries in some sense.

**Actually the Muslim idea seems to be that ..... off of manikins for that reason.**

I just explained the Muslim conception, but this part on manicans - where is this? I live in Saudi, and we have a very iconoclast culture (we're semites, what can we do? :p ) so you find a distortion of 'faces' - male and female - happening. But cutting off breasts? The general Muslim view (and this I've read from multiple scholars) is that the female body is beautiful, but because it is such a jewel, it must be hidden from the eyes for the sake of chastity and modesty.

**Muslim women go along with this. It's either the Stockholm Syndrome,....have less value than men, intellectually, spiritually, morally, etc.**

Where do you base this on really? Your own views or actual studies? If this were the case, you'd expect the house to have collapsed long ago. God, close your TVs for once.

Stan said...

Mohammed, welcome, and thanks for your comments.

Mohammed said,

”…but that the sexes are different exoterically and must have boundaries in some sense."

What sort of boundaries are prescribed?

”so you find a distortion of 'faces' - male and female - happening.”

I don’t understand what you mean, distortion of ‘faces’, are you referring to manikin vandalism?

”**Muslim women go along with this. It's either the Stockholm Syndrome,....have less value than men, intellectually, spiritually, morally, etc.**

Where do you base this on really? Your own views or actual studies? If this were the case, you'd expect the house to have collapsed long ago. God, close your TVs for once.”


Actually, one would suspect a strong, hierarchical structure where one member dominates the other through both custom and legal means. Some Christian offshoot sects have this characteristic, and the women agree to their “place” in that religious and social structure. Muslim women, as I understand, are not allowed many things that men are allowed, including worshipping with the men. Perhaps some of this is cultural and not religious as you suggest, yet Islam is a religion of cultural and legal dominance, it is fairly clear. It appears that even Turkey is veering away from secular political structure and back toward Islamic.

As far as our TV, the media here is quite favorable to Muslims and Islam. They will not even refer to the Taliban or Al Queda as having Islamic influence any longer.

Your following comment really interests me:

”You must not only have a translation, but multiple commentaries, as well as understanding the Laws of Naskh and Mawsuk, adding to that understanding the history of the Suras and verses. Otherwise, your going to understand the verses out of context - concerning women, concerning violence (the comment of the author of this article really fails to understand the nuances - but who can blame him when he gleans his sources from distorted works?) and the place of Man in this world as such.”

You seem to be saying here that the Qur'an cannot be taken alone for what it says, it must be interpreted through (presumably scholarly) commentaries, and that it is particular to historical situations (its validity is situationally or culturally dependent) and presumably therefore not necessarily pertaining to our current situation or even future situations. In other words, the Quran itself is not universal in nature but depends upon these other documents to update or modify it for current use.

This is not my current understanding but I am open to new concepts. I had thought that the Qur'an is universally applicable, and in that sense it is considered true, literally, as the message from Allah given through the prophet. Which of these is actually the case as you understand it?

I understand that Uthman burned the original copies of the Qur’an, making his own version the one remaining version. I understand that Shi’ite Muslims think it is missing much of the true original. Perhaps corrupted somewhat? Requiring interpretation then? It is true that the TV is not much help with these matters; but my TV is not on right now.