Fred:For Cause and Effect to be completely in control of every aspect of human thinking, every thought (which must be material itself) must have a direct physical cause and that cause must be an effect of a prior cause, clear back to the big bang. Now Cause and Effect is ruled by entropy, which means that every effect must be less than its cause, with at least a portion of the cause resulting in disorder such as heat. A relentless trek toward disorder is the fate of the physical universe, and this is a rule that allows no exceptions: there can exist no reversible machines in our physical universe.
”Stan, Thank you for the answers and clarifications. I appreciate your time. In the third-to-last paragraph of your answer (Materialists do in fact claim...) you state Materialists' adherence to Cause and Effect doesn't allow for any human agency which in turn doesn't allow for any "original" - uncaused - thought, since this requires agency. You then say that because of this, reason,... also cannot exist under naturalism. How do you draw this conclusion? Would not a Materialist say that reason does not have to be uncaused (original) for it to exist? Would not a materialist also state that even granting for the non-material transcendent nature of thought one cannot deny the chemical and cellular processes occurring in the material brain in tandem with these thoughts as evidenced by countless scientific experiments; many of which have demonstrated that human behavior (and therefore thoughts) can be altered as a result of material changes through various means to the brain?”
The emergence of life is the first anentropic (non-entropic) event, and that has been followed by generations of further anentropic events, all constrained to living systems. The universal law of Cause and Effect fails to account for the increasing order that is found in living systems. So there is some attempt to claim that things like sentience and thought “emerge” from complex systems somehow, yet there is no explanation for why complex systems exist in an entropic universe in the first place.
Cause and Effect as well as the Second Law of Thermodynamics are universal and undeniably applicable to every and all physical systems… except living systems. But for Philosophical Materialism to be valid, everything that exists must exist physically and obey the laws of physics. This means that, given the conclusion first and trying to fit premises to it, all life must not be exceptional, all life must also fit into the rules of the physical universe, including Cause and Effect and Entropy.
Now if entropy dictates the degradation of effects within a long chain of causes, how might we account for sentience, thought and rationality? It has to be argued that a) these things are physical, and b) they are not exceptional, so that c) if they seem to be exceptional, that is an illusion or delusion. Even the self and consciousness as well as intentionality and agency are declared illusory or delusory. (If we believe an illusion it becomes a delusion).
Brain activity is given as definitive evidence of this delusion; moreover, damage to the brain shows that no mental activity can be correctly performed without a proper brain, with all segments hooked up and working together as shown under MRI. That physical hardware is exercising software of unknown origin escapes this description, which requires that a hardware brain be hardwired with physical connections, and that these connections fire just right somehow to perform a thought, the results of which are then transferred to the conscious mind – which is a delusion.
So it is the firing of the synapses that create the thought, and the thought is a transient state, existing only in time.
We are deluded into thinking that we somehow control these transient states, even creating sequences of them as would be required for critical thinking. There is no agency in the physical universe according to Philosophical Materialism. There is only response to stimulus (effect from a cause) and the response is lossy at that. So we are locked into our delusions.
I am not making this up, as ridiculously absurd as it appears. It is the necessity of a physical-only, material-only dogmatic philosophy that forces such absurd conclusions. Those who think that these positions are not absurd should pledge to abstain from using the results of intentional, conscious agency, including clothing, buildings of all types, transportation of all types, toilets, water and power utilities, and communications devices; these are concrete products of intentional agency. Denial of agency is dumfoundingly absurd. And so are the claims that we all live in a shared delusion.
The existence of the mind, rationality, agency and self requires a completely separate understanding of our existence within a physical universe. Our existence defies the natural laws, and requires a separate and extended view of reality beyond the Materialist viewpoint. The Materialist viewpoint is not sustainable even using its own standards of empirical knowledge: it cannot prove the limits it self-imposes on reality. But even more damaging is the boatload of absurdities that become necessary to believe, if Materialism is to be preserved.
“I suppose the question then is whether it is these material processes in the brain which are the material precursors to non-material thought, or vice versa? Or is it that the two are in a circular relationship where one causes the other and back and forth, back and forth, etc. Of course, a Materialist would give the "first/original" cause of all this as being purely material, the big bang. And a theist would give first cause as the "thought" or original act of creation of God. Is this not then an endless argument which can never be resolved since neither claim can be proven?”The Atheist / Materialist claim can be proven false, due to the non-rational absurdities required for all humans to be living in a shared delusion. Theism is an understanding of a non-physical, non-material reality that presumes that, for one thing, a sentient being is required to create sentience in other objects such as humans. This cannot be proven empirically because it is not an empirical hypothesis, but it is not non-coherent nor is it paradoxical nor does it depend on mass or individual delusion.
"Of course, you rightly point out that because of this inability to prove their claims atheists cannot claim to be any more rational than deists. Is this the main, and only, point of your blog: to deny atheists the claim of rationality? Do you go on to make any arguments in favor of the claims of theists? (I suppose I could answer the last question myself by reading your posts further!) Best wishes.”Please do feel free to read the posts, they are categorized by subject for your reading convenience. I do not indulge in theodicies because they are not proof of anything to the materialist mind. There are a great many theological sources but very few logical assaults on the Atheist worldview such as is done here. So that is the focus of this blog. However, I provide an insight into the study and use of real logic, and that can be used to find a coherent theology; that is a particular journey that I feel every seeker must make for himself, not one that I try to influence.
Again sorry for the delay in answering your question.
6 comments:
I think you're on an interesting track with this. It's essentially the same idea as C.S. Lewis's argument from reason. Victor Reppert is a recent philosopher who has developed this argument in depth: http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/search/label/argument%20from%20reason
However, you are incorrect about thermodynamics. The sun consists of an overall increase in entropy, and thus local decreases in entropy can occur. Living beings get their decrease in entropy from the sun's energy.
It's quite enough to just say that materialism entails only cause/effect, and thus reason would be impossible because each bit of reasoning would be caused by a prior cause, all the way back to the Big Bang. I.e., no rational inference is possible if it's the result of purely non-rational causes, which would be the case with materialism.
No need to appeal to (incorrect) notions of 2nd law breakage.
Your interpretation of entropy would allow for backwashes in which perfect machines would exist. In fact there should be machines that spontaneously generate more energy than they consume, and perpetual motion would exist everywhere on earth. That is not the case for those entities and systems that are beholden to the four forces for their predetermined reactions. Systems that are active, such as the Carbon cycle, Water cycle, continental drift, etc, are entropic. There is no negative entropy on earth that exists within the four natural forces. There are no spontaneous frictionless machines, nor are there such machines invented. Should the concept of entropy be eliminated anywhere, it must be eliminated everywhere.
From this article on entropy:
Here is how the man who defined entropy in the first place describes it:
Max Planck:
“Whether reversible processes exist in nature or not, is not a priori evident or demonstrable. There is, however, no purely logical objection to imagining that a means may some day be found of completely reversing some process hitherto considered irreversible: one, for example in which friction or heat-conduction plays a part. But it can be demonstrated that if, in a single instance, one of the processes here declared to be irreversible should be found to be reversible, then all of these processes must be reversible in all cases. Consequently, either all or none of these processes are irreversible. There is no third possibility. If those processes are not irreversible, the entire edifice of the second law will crumble.. None of the numerous relations deduced from it , however many may have been verified by experience, could then be considered as universally proved, and theoretical work would have to start from the beginning… It is this foundation on the physical fact of irreversibility which forms the strength of the second law. If therefore, it must be admitted that a single experience contradiction that fact would render the law untenable, on the other hand, any confirmation of part supports the whole structure, and gives to deductions, even in seemingly remote regions, the full significance possessed by the law itself.”(2)
[emphasis added].
There are no reversible processes seen in nature. Using the admittedly flawed inductive process we can say that entropy is universal: there are no “back eddy anentropic natural processes”. We can also say that purposefully moving a rock back uphill is anentropic. As Bertrand Russell pointed out, catching a train is against the determinate laws of nature. Determinate physical processes are not the same as non-determinate intentionality.
Your argument seems to say that invoking entropy is not necessary, that Cause and Effect is sufficient to make the case. I don't think that the principle of Cause and Effect is a complete concept without the limitations that entropy places on it; to allow negative entropy into Cause and Effect destroys its usefulness in logic and science because in the limit an infinitesimal cause would be sufficient to produce a nearly infinite effect. This is not observed nor is it expected.
Cause and Effect is always limited by entropy. It is life in general and humans specifically that are not so limited. We are not predetermined by the four forces. This is the exception to the natural law, not a backwash in entropy.
Human anentropic action comes from using disordered energy to produce ordered thoughts, ordered products, ordered societies. Each item produced, however, is entropic and subject to future disorder and decay.
Entropy applies to closed systems only. The earth's ecosystem is not a closed system. The sun provides external energy which decreases entropy on earth without breaking the 2nd law because the sun more than makes up for it by it's own increase in entropy.
This is not a breaking of the 2nd law. Local decrease in entropy as long as the overall entropy increases.
Martin, hi...
Please refer to the article referenced, it discusses the issue of closed and open systems and how that relates to the definition of entropy. Then let's discuss your comments further...
Stan,
Thank you for your response to my questions and the added benefit of having it stated as a post!
I admit being somewhat concerned your silence might've been due to the possible banality of my question (and Martin's first comment here has done little to dissuade that!) but figured you were probably busy with the holiday season.
I appreciate you formulating your answer within the larger context the question of cause and effect and the necessary absurdities it leads to. A repetition of your basic thesis from different vantages is helpful in getting to grips with the entirety of your message and the logical structure that underpins it.
At this point I think it best I continue reading on your Compendium of Rational Principles so that I can start to get a handle on the full picture you're presenting here.
Like Martin I'm interested in your blog because it is the first example I've come across of someone using the iron-clad logic and rationality supposedly used by atheists to break down and expose the materialist view for what it seems to be: a creed.
Unlike Martin, I'm not looking to be convinced of any existence of a deity but merely frustrated by the inability of deists (or is it theists?) to grapple with the apparently unassailable logic presented by atheists for the non-existence of anything other than the material.
I had cottoned on myself quite early on to the absurdity of people asking for physical evidence for something which with almost universal constancy is presented as non-material and supra-national. Furthermore, from a Judeo-Christian doctrinal standpoint, objective proof of the existence of God was also an impossibility since if God were to reveal himself in objective measurable fashion then all people would know he exists and thereby would end our free will, in this instance our freedom to commit evil (including our freedom to reject the existence of God). Judgement Day would become an absurdity and the consignment of some to Heaven and others to Hell a gross injustice. Of course, atheists would not care about this argument since it is within the canon of religious belief which they reject.
I also reasoned that if the atheist position is to only accept that which is discovered and deduced by material means then they had a lot of explaining to do when it came to answering the question of where the big bang came from, or at least what caused it. Positing the existence of a multi-verse only pushes the question back, it does not do away with that most basic of questions of why anything exists rather than does not exist. One surmises that it could just as easily have been the other way, and yet, here we are, and the best science can come up with is that they don't know yet (but might someday), or that the question doesn't matter or that it's all an accident. All relatively weak, if not absurd, answers (and, interestingly, echoing the kind of answers religionists give when confronted with the tough questions), all leading to your question: if one doesn't value truth then what does one value?
It did not occur to me that rather than try to prove the existence of a deity by materialist criteria (something that many religionists - bizarrely - try to do, only to be humiliated and laughed at by the "superior" logic of atheists) a more interesting and indeed enlightening approach was to analyze and break down the atheist position to its core arguments using the principles of logic and rationality which they themselves claim to uphold.
I had also noticed a fairly consistent link between atheism and political leftism which via google directed me to your blog. It's an added and pleasant surprise you're going much further than that here.
Anyway, I sense I'm rambling now and lowering further the little esteem I may've held with you and readers.
Thanks again for the answers.
Fred,
Thanks for your comments, and please know that I live to answer questions on these subjects. Actually when I go too long without comments or questions I begin to question the value of the blog - it is the questions that make it interesting. Well, that and the occasional bad tempered Atheist attack - I like those too.
Please feel free to ask anything that comes to your mind, especially if you find someplace where I have gone awry...
Stan
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