Thursday, January 27, 2011

Without God

Some things come around again and again, and this is one of those things. It requires discussion because it seems to have become the substance of an attempted paradigm shift within the Atheist community. Paradigm shifts occur for a reason, and that will be discussed later. First we will discuss the new paradigm itself.

Despite claiming that “there is no God”, it now is declared that that statement is not a denial. Instead of a denial, it is a declaration that the Atheist is “without God”. How does this work?

How does a person come to be “without God”? And that without a denial? The first thought might be that the person had never heard of such a thing as a deity, a First Cause, a God. That would definitely leave the person without God, unless the person had a personal experience of the deity. Presuming it not the case that the person has had a personal experience of the deity, then that person would be “without God”. But that is not the Atheist condition.

Now if a person has heard of the possibility of such a thing as a deity, First Cause, or God, then how can the person claim to be “without God”, unless the possibility has been first rejected? In fact, the statement is a surreptitious truncation of this statement: "I reject God; therefore I am without God". Nonetheless, let's pursue the truncated claim.

If the possibility of a deity is not rejected, but is rather accepted, then the person cannot be an Atheist.

If the possibility of a deity is placed on hold pending the receipt of further evidence, then the person has assumed a stance traditionally known as “agnosticism”.

What other choices are available beyond a) reject; b) accept; c) place the decision on hold? Perhaps: continue in ignorance, having forgotten the whole thing? Atheists have not forgotten the whole thing.

Atheists have, during the enlightenment centuries and up until recently, directly and positively rejected the existence of deity without trying to conceal that in any form of word play. The exceptions are in places and times of persecution, which did exist: Hume rejected the deity but claimed to be a “sceptic”, in order to get a job professoring at the university – he was rejected because his claim was false.(Note 1) But now the Atheists are not persecuted, yet they insist on disguising their true belief behind word-play.

Atheists do not place the decision regarding the existence of deity on hold. Their claim of "without God" is made on the basis of having rejected God.(Note 2) So taking that position is a move taken to camouflage their actual rejection, and to protect themselves against an uncomfortable truth: Atheism cannot be proved using Atheist criteria for proof.

The paradigm is being consciously shifted because Atheism is vulnerable. It makes demands of others that it cannot satisfy itself. It resolves to a position of unproven and unprovable Faith, a religion in the same sense that Atheists define religion. That is the reason for the paradigm shift amongst Atheists during the past decade: they cannot admit to having denied [Q], because they cannot prove their claim of non-existence of [Q]. So they change their stance, rather than change their position. Rather than admit that they believe in a faith-statement, they deny their belief, and conceal it with a new statement claiming that they have not denied [Q]. This, they think, protects them from having to prove their position.

If they do not deny [Q], and they don’t believe [Q], then they are by traditional definition, agnostic on the subject of [Q]. (Or ignorant of the subject of [Q] altogether). And while claiming faux-atheism in the form of agnosticism outwardly, they think that they are not obliged to prove their position any longer.

It is agnostic-envy. And outright theft of the agnostic position.

To claim to believe in, say, [Z] while not really believing in [Z] is dishonest. There is no other way to say that, that I can see: it is dishonest. And at that point it becomes legitimate to ask, “why one would continue a discussion under those conditions, when the other side of the conversation is dishonest?” What rational conclusion can come from such a discussion, other than it is not ever profitable?

It is a clear indication of the religious, dogmatic character of Atheism: claiming to be logical and fact-oriented on the one hand, and blatantly dishonest on the other when it comes to providing “real” and “material” facts for supporting its own belief system - yet requiring just exactly that of competing belief systems. The conclusion, (no God), is more important than actual logic or actual facts to support it. The conclusion, (no God), is a purely religious tenet.

Atheists back-slap each other (virtually) on the cleverness of their ruse. But it is so totally transparent to outsiders that it diminishes the credibility of Atheism drastically. Maybe they have come to believe their own deception. That again says something about the rationality of Atheism.

Notes:
1) Hume considered himself discriminated against due to his Atheism; possibly. But it is also possible that he was not hired because he was a liar.


2) For a short time it was common to hear Atheists claim that they have "no god theory". That was transparent, even to Atheists. So now they have a new claim.

19 comments:

Martin said...

Relevant: http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/

Stan said...

Martin,
Excellent article, thanks for the reference...

Jeremy said...

The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god",

I don't know why you bash on wikipedia so much. It's like you're scared you might actually learn something.

Here's a religious websites definition.

1. without God, knowing and worshipping no God
2. denying the gods, esp. the recognised gods of the state
3. godless, ungodly
4. abandoned by the gods

http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=112


And this one

without God, knowing and worshipping no God

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/atheos.html


I do deny and reject the claim that god exists.

I do this based upon all the information I currently have.

New information may cause me to alter my position.

I am quite comfortable saying there is no god, as I think the probability is incredibly low.

I am an atheist. It means "without god".

This is contrasted by agnosticism which claims that truth claims, particularly regarding God, is unknown or unknowable.

Merriam-Webster: "A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god."

1870, "one who professes that the existence of a First Cause and the essential nature of things are not and cannot be known" [Klein]; coined by T.H. Huxley (1825-1895) from Gk. agnostos "unknown, unknowable," from a- "not" + gnostos "(to be) known"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=agnostic


It's really not that hard.

I do like the "Militant Agnostic" position though. "I don't know and neither do you!"

Great article Martin. I particularly enjoyed some of the comments.

"If you don’t beleive in God you better make sure that you are right because if you are not ,then you better be ready to feel the wrath of God"

Such a loving example of judeo-christian values no?

Jer said...

LOL, seriously you deleted my post.

OMG NOO, not definitions!

I can't stand being blatantly obviously undeniably wrong.

Delete delete delete

If I close my eyes its like it never happened.

Stan said...

I deleted no posts. Repost it. Your accusations are false. Your sarcasm is Junior High level.

Stan said...

Ok, your post was in the spam filter again. It is posted above. It was not deleted.

I have to go, so I will not be responding before early evening.

Jer said...

I rescind the high school accusations and apologize for jumping to conclusions.

I did see it posted and it was then gone. I was irritated because I actually had to look stuff up and put formatting into the post, can't just shoot all that back out from memory.

Anonymous said...

What is the opposite of atheist?

Longstreet

Stan said...

Jer,
I will try here to list your various positions, to see if we are discussing the same things:

1. You will accept as proof of a First Cause:
a) nothing; it is internally contradictory; arguments to the contrary not accepted because First Cause is defined as internally contradictory on wiki; no further discussion (must less: thought) on the matter is required. The answer on wiki is authoritative.

b) However you will accept:
b1. A miracle, if done to your specifications, at your command.
b2. A perfect argument, provided on command: an immaculate theodicy, for which you cannot find any maneuvers of term redefinition, denial of meaning, fallacy skirting, or references to Reality, etc that will defeat it. Not materialist reality of course, since you are not a materialist; just…. Reality.
b3. A revelation that provides novel information which conforms to reality, which will be defined later, if at all. Not material reality, of course, since you are not a materialist, just…. Reality.

2. Definitions are flexible; evolving doncha know. Certain Atheist websites know how to define themselves for maximal inclusion; therefore dictionary definitions are wrong. In fact, these experts should be checked frequently, since redefinition is frequently needed due to evolution and all.

Except for definitions of agnostics, of course, for which Atheists will call dictionary definitions authoritative, for the moment. Atheists are not agnostics but will approve or disapprove definitions for them. In fact, the Atheist websites should be checked frequently to see if they have changed their minds on the definition of agnostic. Probably the definition of Theist, too, since they know exactly what Theists believe (more on this below).

3. Atheists do not have to prove their belief system, because they have learned to use the qualifier “probably”, which inoculates them from having to show anything other than contempt for competing worldviews, which must prove their position using, uh, Reality. Not materialist reality, of course, since you are not a materialist, just…. Reality.

But back to the term "probably": it is not necessary to define the conditions or calculations used to determine the probability function, because one can say that they merely probably believe that there probably is no .... etc. Another probably can be added whenever it is challenged. This works to make it totally opaque as to what an Atheist believes, so he is safe from logical challenge.

4. The position of competing worldviews is that which Atheists say it is; Atheists know what everyone believes, because Atheists have written it on their websites (authoritatively) for all to read. Oh, examples like God is love. Not justice. Stuff like that. Then they rip it apart of course.

Now when Theists try to list their own beliefs, Atheists must cry foul because the Theists do not use the Atheist definitions which are set up to tear down. So that is a Theist fallacy, right there.

Even more false is that Theists might demand that Atheists provide evidence in Reality for the Atheist position. Too much work there. Can't be done. So the demand is false - not the worldview. Besides, the Theist demand on Reality is that it be materialist; that's just wrong. Morally offensive, even.

5. Reality. Well, you know, not materialist reality because you are not a materialist, just…. Reality. Reality is really real. Really. But it is not materialist.

Jer, feel free to edit this and c'mon back.
Stan

Jeremy said...

1. Ah. I did discuss it and pointed out where the special pleading and inconsistency in the argument was.

Saying that means I have an impossible standard of proof is not a valid argument for the same reasons it is not irrational to reject the existence of square circles.

2. I can't believe you are still arguing about this. Two of the three websites I listed were religious ones. Yeah, atheists co-opted the agnostic position back in ancient Greek. Then the agnostic position was coined about a hundred years ago.

I'm just going by what the words mean. Before this website I've never seen a definition of agnostic as "without god" or of atheism as "a claim to definitively know god doesn't exist".

Google is your friend.

3. Totally opague to some obviously.

You think I've shown nothing but contempt? Some contempt I suppose but you know the saying, if you don't want people to laugh at your silly ideas, don't have such silly ideas.

I think there are excellent arguments against theism. There are paltry arguments for theism. Thus theism is probably false. Is it really that hard to understand the 'belief'?

4. This is a total red herring. I never made that argument. Also I listed two definitions from religious websites for atheism.
Maybe they are really conspiratory atheist websites ... 8-|

No one has really tried to list a theistic belief here..? Not sure what you are arguing against. I would like it if someone could provide a succinct definition of theism. Heh, or I could check Wikipedia .. but no, I don't want to do that. It is your position and I will allow you to explain to me what your position is. Magnanimous of me no?

You don't think its fair to call "infinite proof" too much work? Unlike theists, I don't think I have eternity to explain this to you.

5. Didn't like the definition? I thought sarcasm wasn't an argument?
Hey, if magic is real the f'n awesome.

Mike McKeen said...

I lack formal training in logic so I tend to retreat to very simplistic notions of how to prove things. Basically I tend to rely on my scientific training more than my philosophical training which is to say a few undergrad science classes vs. 0 philosophy classes.

The problem I see is that the definitions of atheist and atheism seem to depend on the person who holds the belief. Whether they lack belief in a god or reject the existence outright.

Seems to me that rather than arguing the definitions or even the logical shortcomings of theists and atheists, it would be simpler to seek real empirical proof of "god". The important question is not What do you believe?" but rather "Does god exist?"

One example I've often found useful in arguing my stance is a person reaches into their pocket for some change to pay for a cup of coffee. They reach in for the coins only to find there are no coins there. The person fully expected to find coins yet there are none. In this case, we have real evidence of absence. This where we finally find the need for real evidence. The coins are absent but they do exist. Mints exist all over the world and they make millions and millions of coins every year. We can observe these coins with our senses. They are real and definite.
God is another matter simply because we don't yet know how (if it is possible at all) to define god. We require first and foremost god's measurements in a matter of speaking. The theists who claim existence must have knowledge of this if they wish to make a positive claim of existence. Please share this knowledge so we can put this one to bed.

Stan said...

Mike,
You have struck upon the heart of this blog. Theists make a claim of a non-material entity, one that exists without the measurements you mention. One that exists outside and beyond the universe and is not subject to the material, physical limitations that empiricism accepts, voluntarily, for itself. Theists point out the the "need" for such evidence is a Category Error, since it is known in advance that the request applies to category = physical entities alone, not to category = non-physical entities.

So the position becomes this: the Theist claim is made. Now the Atheist rebuttal is to be made. The rebuttal consists of denying that the non-physical entity does not exist (forget the "probably" nonsense). Rebuttals are arguments just as are th original assertions; this means that the same evidentiary rules apply to Atheist rebuttals, as to the Theist claims.

And there is the rub: Atheists continue to demand Evidence that is physical, despite the logical fallacy of Category Error. So in this case, simple fairness dictates that they provide evidence for their position that satisfies the same demands that they make of Theism: provide physical evidence to support your claim.

This evidentiary demand is unreasonable only if the Atheist does not make the demand first, but of course the Atheist does make that demand of the Theist.

Atheists continue to demand Special Pleading for their case, and continue to disallow any relief from the Category Error for the Theists. This is intellectual chicanery and logical hucksterism. In other words it is dishonest, on its face; yet if Atheists truly believe in this erroneous logic, and in a principle with no hope of proof under their own Materialist demands, then their belief system is religious in nature, in the same sense that Atheists define religion. Under traditional logic, Atheism is a religion.

That is why they now insert "probably" into their own belief description, but without any derivation, mathematically, of the probability. It is a subjective "probability" based not on material evidence, but on gut feel or emotional need.

Atheists in fact decry Theists who have "hope and faith", while they have also "hope and faith" that they are not wrong - hope that there is no objective justice, and faith that they can reject objective justice unscathed. Same religious attributes, inverted value scale.

Stan said...

Jer,
I am done with you. You will not define "real" and explain why "real" is different from "material"; and your obvious self-contradictions place you outside rational conversation. It's an obvious waste of time to discuss anything with someone who can't or won't discern contradictory terms, and who refuses to specify completely the meaning of the terms they use.

Judgment without justification is not rational dialog. It is preaching a holy dogma. Your beliefs cannot be provn in "reality", so they are judgments, not facts: a religious position at best.

I have other things to do.
Stan

Jeremy said...

Bang on Mike. That sure would clear it up in a snap. Can you imagine Jesus flying down from the clouds and the theistic response being "Oh that's material evidence, that doesn't apply to a non-material being." Puh-lease.

Stan. I did define real. You respond with sarcasm (which you said wasn't an argument not so long ago) and now say I did not differentiate between 'real' and 'material'.

I think ideas are real. Is knowledge real? Wonder? Concepts? Mathematics? Are they material? I think they are all real.

You are a moving goal post with it's tongue sticking out going 'nyah nyah you can't hit me.'

And I'm like.. man, you are full of holes.

You refuse to acknowledge the gulf between your definition of atheism (the position of which your entire website is devoted to undermining) and EVERY OTHER DEFINITION ON THE ENTIRE INTERNET.

Your beliefs cannot be provn in "reality", so they are judgments, not facts

That's actually correct. And is contrasted by your claim that atheists claim to definitively know that god does not exist.

Obvious self-contradiction much?

Tell you what, if I post on your website, it'll be as an agnostic, which means (to you and you alone) "without god".

If I post anywhere else on the internet, it'll be as an atheist which means .. wait for it ...

without god.

Chris said...

Mike,
OK, i'll take a stab at some clarification. As far as i can tell, you would be object to anyone making a ABSOLUTE truth claim regarding metaphysical questions. As far as i understand it, that's an agnostic. So that would make you an agnostic atheist. But here's the rub. Your atheist BELIEF (you don't absolutely deny the possibility of transcendental objects) is based on a line of thinking that is dogmatically materialist. No evidence, no God/s. That's precisely why you consider yourself an atheist. Therefore, you're not really agnostic at all. So, with respect, I believe that you're a devout materialist/atheist who's not aware of his own dogma.

Name/URL said...

Stan whats your thoughts on atheists who say God cant be demonstrated unlike everything else that exists?

Stan said...

That is hedging one's bets, with a little word play, it appears. It is close to theology, actually. For example, miracles don't speak to everyone. The order of nature and the source of order doesn't move everyone. Demonstrating God pretty much means producing God on demand, as in a show and tell. So on the one hand the statement is materialist.

But on the other hand, theists say something similar. God does not show himself directly (at least currently), and so cannot be directly "demonstrated", materially. Knowledge of God comes (after personal humility) as a personal experience which again is not sharable, materially.

So this defiinition of Atheism does not provide much separation or differentiation from theism. Again Atheism is trying to be so broad as to be meaningless, or at least without a credible belief system to which it can be held accountable. It is another way of rejecting God by making a negative statement, in an attempt to avoid the positive statement, "I reject the existence of God", which is a religious statement.

Martin said...

Me and Jeremy's discussion has gotten long, and has now moved into "blog owner has to approve the comments" territory. Suggestions?

Stan said...

I'll open a new post for you.