”While religious movements generally depend on convincing their adherents that they are part of a divinely chosen in-group and all others are not, humanism is founded on the consensus that we are all human and that the notion of an out-group in and of itself is an obstacle to our advancement. Though religious people may strive to better the lives of all, their efforts are often limited by the existence of an unavoidable hurdle: all who don't follow their faith are part of the out-group. So no matter how much one faith may wish lower the wall that separates them from another, there will always be a tripping stone between them -- it is exactly this block that a humanistic approach helps us step over.Which Manifesto will this coming Humanist conference choose? Maybe a new one, one that will explain how human nature will magically be morphed into a compliant, altruistic one which voluntarily gives up considering its own needs and issues first? Because if they have a plan for that, I certainly am interested in hearing it.
Overcoming barriers put in place by religion, ideology, geography, and the like, is frequently attainable. In fact, it is the sort of feat often repeated in history. In hunter-gatherer times, humans extended the circle of empathy to their family unit alone. Over generations, this circle has grown, from family, to tribe, to nation-state, and even further. The events in Norway are a reminder of the desperate need for humanity to continue evolving our ability to empathize until we view our world as inhabited by one people.”
The most recent manifestos, however, merely bleat on about how it would be so nice if folks would just co-operate and be more, you know, empathetic. If folks would just behave differently from how they have always behaved and start to behave how they have never behaved, wouldn’t the world be… humanist? As my friend says, if frogs had wings, they wouldn’t bump their butts.
Humanism is based on the idea of the perfectibility of humans, where perfect is defined by, who else, the humanists. The understory is that humans can be without sin, and if all humans would just do that, then the earth would be inhabited by a race of gods. The humanists are the prophets and priests, of course. The belief in the perfectibility of humans is without any evidence to support it, and with thousands of years and billions of humans which disprove it; it is a belief held blindly, a fatuous religion with magical miracles and the longing for deity status.
The more well defined Humanisms do not eliminate “in groups” contrary to Speckhardt’s claim. Under Comte, humanism was to be run by brilliant scientist-philosophers as the combination priesthood and governing body over the masses. Under Nietzsche, the “herd” was to be formed into a single class under the ruling of those with the “will to power”. Under the “New Man” humanisms, from Lenin to Che, well, we know what happened there. The First “Humanist Manifesto” is explicit: institutions will be seized and morally reformed for equalization; the later manifestos become foggy quickly on the details, the plan. Humanism is attractive only to those who are history impaired.
To those who complain that “this new humanism is different from those others”, one need only to ask, “how are you going to cause this miraculous change in human nature to occur universally? What is your plan? Will it include Hell’s Angels and Chinese communists and Muslims (both Sunni and Shiite will become transformed into altruism for not only each other but for the Jews)? What about skinheads and politicians? Why do I doubt your ability to recruit Baptists, Catholics, Buddhists and Hindus? Why should I feel empathy for pedophiles? Your plan please!”
Perhaps the humanists will claim that we humans will evolve. To that we’ll ask, since when has evolution been declared directional, teleological, marching toward perfection with your preferred outcome in its sights? Why would humans as a group select to submerge their own needs in favor of others – biologically? What actual evidence (not Just So evo-devo stories like the fantasies in Speckhardt's statement above) can you present in your favor? It would truly take a miracle to get humans to randomly evolve away from their own self-interest. Or would this evolution be forced?
At best humanism is magical wishful thinking. At its worst, and we have seen it at its worst, it is deadly. Either humanists have entranced themselves with visions of their own perceived goodness, or they have not and are cynically involved for the inevitable takeover from within. Either way humanism is neither beneficial nor even benign. It is a social malignancy waiting to metastasize.
20 comments:
There is only one way to make to human race work.
A strong man must lead and the rest must follow under threat of punishment. The human race is totally corrupt ever since the Fall. Because of the Fall no humanist-communist system will work. Everyman is enslaved to sin. They must be made to follow the man God brings up.
This is how the entire universe works. The strong man must follow God and those under him must follow God. Every other method will fail. They elected a black muslim and this country is sinking.
"The human race is totally corrupt ever since the Fall."
Do atheists espouse any particular point of view on the subject of human nature?
If survival is the only purpose of human existence, words like "corrupt" or "good" would seem inapplicable.
explain how human nature will magically be morphed into a compliant, altruistic one
If human nature was compliant and altruistic, Secular Humanists would say naturally not magically.
Humanism is based on the idea of the perfectibility of humans,
Secular Humanism is a secular ideology which espouses reason, ethics, and justice. How you get "the perfectibility of humans" from that is left unexplained.
The understory is that humans can be without sin, and if all humans would just do that, then the earth would be inhabited by a race of gods.
Citation please.
Under Nietzsche, the “herd” was to be formed into a single class under the ruling of those with the “will to power”.
Nietzsche argues in Genealogy of Morals that humanism was nothing more than a secular version of theism. He was against humanism and argued that human rights exist as a means for the weak to constrain the strong; as such, they deny rather than facilitate emancipation of life.
The First “Humanist Manifesto” is explicit: institutions will be seized and morally reformed for equalization;
I have the Humanist Manifest I in front of me and copies are available to read on the internet. It does not explicitly say that.
Right.
Because if anything that can widely be considered to be 'bad' came out out humanism, then it couldn't, by definition, be humanism!
Great!
Adam said,
”If human nature was compliant and altruistic, Secular Humanists would say naturally not magically.”
But human nature is not compliant and altruistic is it? So the point is taken that it is, in fact, magical thinking… or that compliancy must be enforced. In fact, “compliancy” is a really good term for what humanists want: compliance with their form of moral order.
” Secular Humanism is a secular ideology which espouses reason, ethics, and justice. How you get "the perfectibility of humans" from that is left unexplained.”
First, the terms “reason, ethics, and justice” are merely feel-good buzzwords. Humanism is not based on “reason” it is based on the magical thinking that everyone will abandon his own interests for the interests of some amorphous “mankind” and its flourishing which will be defined by the humanist priesthood.
Second, ethics are defined as the previously mentioned humanist priest-determined “flourishing” of the overall congregation called “mankind”. Ethics are to be declared to the masses in manifestos.
Third, if humans are not perfectible as the humanists would have it, then humans would have to be “perfected”, wouldn’t they? Otherwise, the imperfect humans would take up arms against those who would dictate that the masses no longer shall consider their own interests but shall henceforth consider only the benefit of the amorphous “mankind” and its flourishing. If this does not sound familiar, then you did not receive history education.
Fourth, the term “justice” under humanist word-warp means “social justice”. Social justice is the removal of rights from the individual and the bestowal of rights upon the amorphous “mankind”, which shall benefit as deemed fit by the priests of humanism.
Fifth, back to the term “reason”. Humanists eschew any objective truth or values, which means that they get to make up their own stuff. Chief amongst these warped concepts is that of “reason”, which is no longer based on any foundational logic, and which is therefore applied to any random moralizing that the Atheist humanist might produce, and which is deemed “reason” merely because the Atheist humanist thought of it. Without foundational logical principles and valid syllogistic capabilities, the Atheo-humanist “reason” is merely mental effluence which the Atheo-humanist wishes to reify or even deify into policy as moral cant or manifestos.
”The understory is that humans can be without sin, and if all humans would just do that, then the earth would be inhabited by a race of gods.
Citation please.”
Citation: empirical observation. Also see Neitzsche, below.
Rebuttal please
(continued below)
”Nietzsche argues in Genealogy of Morals that humanism was nothing more than a secular version of theism. He was against humanism and argued that human rights exist as a means for the weak to constrain the strong; as such, they deny rather than facilitate emancipation of life.”
It is difficult to know on which side of the fence Nietzsche falls. He makes this statement:
Nietzsche:
”Thus we immoralists require the power of morality: our drive of self-preservation wants our opponents to retain their strength – it only wants to become master over them.”
Nietzsche; “The Will To Power; Kaufmann, Ed., pg 197.
Yet that seemingly clear declaration is seemingly contradicted elsewhere:
Nietzsche:
”Now suppose that belief in God has vanished: the question presents itself anew: “who speaks?” – My answer, taken not from metaphysics but from animal physiology: the herd instinct speaks. It wants to be master: hence its “thou shalt!” – it will allow value to the individual only from the point of view of the whole, for the sake of the whole, it hates those who detach themselves – it turns the hatred of all individuals against them.
The whole of European morality is based upon what is useful to the herd: the affliction of all higher , rarer men lies in this, that everything that distinguishes them enters their consciousness accompanied by a feeling of diminution and discredit.”
And,
”The problem of “equality”, while we all thirst after distinction: here, on the contrary, we are supposed to make exactly the same demands on ourselves as we make on others. This is so insipid, so obviously crazy: but - it is felt to be holy, of a higher rank, the conflict with reason is hardly noticed.
“Sacrifice and selflessness as distinguishing, unconditional obedience to morality, and the faith that one is everyone’s equal before it.
“The neglect and surrender of well-being and life as distinguishing, the complete renunciation of making the one’s own evaluations, and the firm desire to see everyone else renounce them too. “The value of an action is determined: everyone is subject to this valuation”. We see: an authority speaks – who speaks? - One may forgive human pride if it sought to make this authority as high as possible in order to feel as little humiliated as possible under it . Therefore – God speaks!
Nietzsche; “The Will To Power; Kaufmann, Ed., pg 157.
”By which means does a virtue come to power?- By exactly the same means as a political party: the slandering, inculpation, undermining of virtues that oppose it and are already in power, by rebaptizing them, by systematic persecution and mockery. Therefore: through sheer “immorality”.
“What does a desire to with itself to become a virtue? – Rebaptism; systematic denial of its objectives; practice in self-misunderstanding; alliance with existing and recognized virtues; ostentatious hostility against their opponents. Where possible it purchases the protection of sanctifying powers; it intoxicates, it inspires; the tartuffery of idealism; it forms a party which must either conquer with it or perish – it becomes unconscious, naïve –“
Nietzsche, Ibid, pg 174, 175.
Adam said,
I have the Humanist Manifest I in front of me and copies are available to read on the internet. It does not explicitly say that.
Let’s read it:
THIRTEENTH: Religious humanism maintains that all associations and institutions exist for the fulfillment of human life. The intelligent evaluation, transformation, control, and direction of such associations and institutions with a view to the enhancement of human life is the purpose and program of humanism. Certainly religious institutions, their ritualistic forms, ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities must be reconstituted as rapidly as experience allows, in order to function effectively in the modern world.
Humanists will transform, control, and direct religious institutions? The religious institutions must be “reconstituted”? Including their “ritualistic forms, ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities”? How can there possibly be a more arrogant statement of Atheist control and elimination of religion? I don’t see how.
FOURTEENTH: The humanists are firmly convinced that existing acquisitive and profit-motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate and that a radical change in methods, controls, and motives must be instituted. A socialized and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that the equitable distribution of the means of life be possible. The goal of humanism is a free and universal society in which people voluntarily and intelligently cooperate for the common good. Humanists demand a shared life in a shared world.
Humanists decree: “…A socialized and cooperative economic order must be established…” Why? ”… equitable distribution … common good …
Humanists decree: “… radical change in methods, controls, and motives must be instituted. A socialized and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that the equitable distribution of the means of life be possible.
Humanists DEMAND a share of our stuff? But they demand that we give it up VOLUNTARILY? This manifesto is irrational even without trying to deduce its underlying motivations and thought processes. But its plans are clear: to seize and control both private religious institutions and private economic institutions in order to place themselves at the helm, which they morally deserve because they are so moral in their own eyes.
“Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ—to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life,”
Wrote Truth in Action and former executive director of Coral Ridge Ministries George Grant.
“But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice ... It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time ... World conquest.”
So . . . if we all unite to destroy humanism, the world will be a perfect place???
(---)said,
"Coral Ridge Ministries... George Grant... World conquest..."
I have sent a request off to Coral Ridge Ministries for a confirmation of this quote and a link to the statement for context. But I do have the following comments in the meantime.
First, this is a Tu Quoque, having nothing to do with the conversation.
Second, this is not biblical in any sense, and is not a policy.
Third, I doubt that 99% of Christians have heard of George Grant or his opinions, so their relationship to his "policy" is: none.
Fourth, the first 80 sites googled (I didn't go further) were Atheo-Leftist sites spreading this exact quote around as if it represents all Christendom... still without any pointers to a source.
Fifth, based on this I suspect that we will find that this is a fraud; we will see, if we can find the truth behind it. It is interesting that the "rational" Atheo-Left did not pursue the facts behind it, but spread it around virally as if it were Truth.
But human nature is not compliant and altruistic is it?
Humans are to a degree "compliant" (to what?) and altruistic. Humans are to a degree non-compliant and non-altruistic. How are you planning to measure compliance and altruism? Does one altruistic act make a person altruistic? One could argue that the existence of altruism amongst humans makes the human race altruistic.
First, the terms “reason, ethics, and justice” are merely feel-good buzzwords. Humanism is not based on “reason”...
Humanism espouses reason. That is, humanism embraces reason as a cause.
"Citation please."
...
Rebuttal please
I'm sure any observers to this exchange know this method of "prove me wrong"-style arguing belongs with schoolyard. If you provide any evidence that humanists want "deity status" and believe the "earth would be inhabited by a race of gods" then I'll examine it until then this is yet another of your baseless assertions.
Also, look up the word "understory" in the dictionary. It does not mean what you think it means.
It is difficult to know on which side of the fence Nietzsche falls.
Nietzsche is known as one of the earliest antihumanists. Quoting him as if he was a humanist is about as clever as calling Anton LaVey a Christian and quoting him about Christianity.
I have no idea why I bothered to take you seriously.
Adam said,
"I have no idea why I bothered to take you seriously."
You asked for a citation, and I gave you one.
Now you are making assertions without citations of your own, and you did not argue against the Nietzche quotes I gave, but rather are attempting to defame my abilities without making an actual rebuttal argument.
For example, the statement that humanism "espouses reason" is not an argument in defense of the internal contradictions which inhere to Atheo-humanism, which have been pointed out. The ideologies of Atheism and Humanism both lay claim to "reason" without showing any indication that they understand what reason actually entails. I can defend that statement if you wish to challenge it.
When you make an actual argument in favor of universal denial of personal self-interest as a mutation of the whole of human-kind, then we can talk about how that would be brought about,and the consequences of such a transformation. You have not made such an argument.
As for "understory" have you never heard of metaphors? It is in the dictionary...
Adam, Adam, Adam.
Where do I start?
"I have no idea why I bothered to take you seriously." Well, THERE'S your problem.
why be serious? You might think "someone is wrong on the internet" is a great reason to post a comment but really it's pointless.
I'll teach you how most of Stan's posts go.
Find a group you hate and make a tangent claim.
"Preschools are based on the idea of enslaving children"
Find a quote from this group and redefine the words.
"They claim they "give children some freedom" but we all know to preschool teachers the word "freedom" means "forced labor" and the removal of handguns.
Claim this is illogical.
"They claim to be logical but won't allow four year olds to carry guns. This is illogical."
Tie them in with SOCIALISM.
"Preschool children are given milk and cookies without earning them. The children's hardearned guns are taken away from them. This is socialism."
Since now we've PROVEN a link with Socialism, make a reference to Mao or breadlines.
"The cookie handouts at preschool are training our young for their future standing in breadlines waiting for Mao to give them a cookie. we all know how THAT turned out." Make it as emotional as possible but deride any opponents as emotional.
Now make your case by making outlandish assertions:
"Preschool teachers want the wealthy to carry calculators."
If anyone asks for any evidence that this is indeed the case, simply say that it is an "observation" and it requires a rebuttal. Don't give examples.
If there's no rebuttal, build a case on the assertion.
Remember it always easier to beat up a strawman.
"Some might say 'Cookies should be free' but imagine the cost. Society would be destroyed by the lazy relying on free cookies."
Tie this back in with your first assertion.
"Free cookies are the bait for the trap of enslavement!"
End with a brief "call to arms"
"How long can we sit idly by while preschools enslave children? We must stop it. Before it stops us."
The most important thing is to shift the burden of proof. If anyone called you stupid say "Ad hominion". If anyone tries to explain logic to you say "That is not a rebuttal." Remember you are never wrong.
Hope this helps, Adam.
Nats,
I saw this rant two years ago on an Atheist blog... You've been sitting on it all this time so you could pretend it's yours and use it somewhere? You are very patient.
But I await an actual argument.
I saw this rant two years ago on an Atheist blog... You've been sitting on it all this time so you could pretend it's yours and use it somewhere? You are very patient.
I came up with this independently.
You have to give me a link so I can compare. It's not so difficult to analyze your style so it could be similar but I won't believe you until I see it myself.
Somehow, I'm not too concerned with what you don't believe. You'll just have to be an alinkist (without link).
Interesting that Nats used an example in which he implicitly equates adult citizens with children...
That Secular Humanism is really all about a self-appointed elite who consider themselves the "teachers" and everyone else the "children" is a point not made as often as it should be.
And answered? Not much at all...
That Christianity is really all about a self-appointed elite who consider themselves the elect and everyone else the damned is a point not made as often as it should be.
And answered? Not much at all...
Nats: Actually, that point is made and discussed ALL THE TIME. Its not something any serious Christian denies.
Do you have anything better to add than an absurd parody of my comments?
"Coral Ridge Ministries... George Grant... World conquest..."
I have sent a request off to Coral Ridge Ministries for a confirmation of this quote and a link to the statement for context.
...
I suspect that we will find that this is a fraud...
Dominionism is a belief some Christian groups have. Some of the advisers to the Bush administration were Dominionists. They are open about wanting a theocracy so there are plenty of quotes like that one.
To save you time, the quote appears in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Changing-Guard-Principles-Political-Blueprint/dp/0930462270
Post a Comment