Sunday, October 16, 2011

From PZ's Place: Nick Martin, Skeptic, on Why I Am An Atheist:

”Part of me wants to give a smart-assed answer to this question, because at my core, I am a smart-ass. Something like “because religion is evil” (which it is) or “because the Flying Spaghetti Monster told me to be one” (which may also be true). But, when I look at my core, the only answer I have to give is “because it’s the only position a skeptic can have”.

It’s something relatively recent in my life. I was raised in a conservative Christian household. I had to go to church every week, it was a requirement that I go to at least one service. But at the same time, my parents encouraged my love of astronomy specifically and science in general. And in retrospect, that is where it all started. That love taught me to question everything (which I most certainly did).

But getting out of the other side of my upbringing took time. I went off to college, Missouri State University (then Southwest Missouri State), and hooked up with Chi Alpha (XA) Campus Ministries. This was before they had Skepticon, a FSM church, or really any skeptical movement at all. Again, in hindsight, I feel a bit of shame, because I understand now that prosthelytizing my beliefs had to have done some real harm to people, something I can’t change. I only hope that by speaking out against religion now can undo some of that.

I was a skeptic with most everything else growing up. I didn’t believe in ghosts, ESP, aliens, or anything else in the pseudo-scientific range, but like so many other “skeptic believers,” I was not willing to turn that same scrutiny on my beliefs. Of course, like a college student, and to be fair, most human beings, it turns out I was also a fairly bad Christian, and a fairly normal college student, in liking loud music, drinking, sex, and skipping classes.
That all started to change after some a series of bad events pushed me more into that “good Christian” category again. I went to church, went to small groups, and, dangerously enough, started to read my bible. And for some reason, one I still cannot explain, I started to question why I believed what I did. I looked back at myself, and what I had been crediting god for getting me through, and realized that he hadn’t done shit.

It wasn’t a slow process. I wouldn’t even call myself an atheist until, reading Phil Plaitt’s blog, he mentioned, off-hand, someone named “PZ.” It was some inside joke I wasn’t part of, so I dug. I found out who this “PZ” was… and read enough to understand that, as a skeptic, there is only one position to be had. You cannot dismiss all fairies except the one you like any more than you can deny a color you don’t care for doesn’t exist (otherwise, the world would be rid of mauve by now). I didn’t like facing it at first, but I couldn’t dodge the questions. And when you look at belief the same way you look at ghosts, there is no way you can’t see it for what it is.

In the end, it was my own skepticism that forced me to realize the only thing I could be is an atheist.
Nick Martin
United States

This has at least a little reasoning rather than the unreasoned “reasons” we have been seeing. Nick claims “skepticism” as a worldview. And he rightly determined that skepticism is logically incompatible with Theism. So he decided that skepticism was correct.

Nick made an interesting comment, that skeptics are unwilling to turn that same scrutiny on their beliefs. What this meant to him, at his stage of intellectual development, was that his other core belief should be subject to this core belief, that his Theism should be subject to his skepicism.

What Nick has not done is to subject his skepticism to logic.

To be skeptical of skepticism never seemingly occurs to those who value skepticism over everything else, including logic. Skepticism is not a path to knowledge. Skepticism merely says, “you can’t prove that”. And it turns out that taken to its logical conclusion, skepticism can satisfactorily deny every premise that can be made. It devolves to denying all objective inputs as being sourced by teams of scientists who are placing those inputs into your brain which is in a vat.

The “brain in a vat” scenario” leaves no means for providing evidence that it is not the case. It destroys the premise that objective inputs via our senses and neural pathways have at least some reliability in reflecting the exterior world – if there is an exterior world. A true Skeptic can have no true beliefs at all, since they are all input by a team of deceivers (“evil demons” according to Descartes).

So skepticism and Skepticism (Capital S) are merely devices used to deny that which the skeptic chooses to deny. And it works since there is no way to disprove most skepticism.

Modern Skeptics (capital S) have chosen to limit their skepticism to all things that are not empirically determinable. They feel justified and even moral in this arbitrary limit, because it allows them to debunk certain frauds. This, of course, is not actually skepticism, it is due process of logical and empirical analysis. So the Skeptics take possession of empirical science too, although that is not their expertise. And the take possession of logic, even though they have no idea of how to use logic or what logic is based upon.

So the Modern Skeptics are a moral amalgam of denial, of science worship, and projection of logic – not – understood.

When it comes to those things not material or subject to science, Modern Skepticism reduces to denial. Skeptics demand proof for ghosts, pixies, God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and the orbiting tea pot. This lumps the absurd in with the rationally possible.

Placing a rationally possible premise in with absurd premises – in order to cause an association of absurdity of the rationally possible premise – is an error of Fallacy by False Association. The failure to argue directly against a single premise is a rational error so basic that school children are warned against it. Yet it is a staple argument of Skeptics.

When Nick chose skepticism over all other premises, he failed to take the next basic step. It is one thing to say “you can’t prove that”, and stop there. It is still another step to take each subject individually and (first having understood logic, it’s grounding and its analytical techniques) to analyze the subject, its premises and subpremises for coherence and rational integrity. That sort of analysis is the mark of intellectual maturity and rationality, and Skepticism (“you can’t prove that) is the mark of immature obscurantism.

Exhibit one is that Skepticism provides no new knowledge.

Exhibit two is that Skepticism produces a proclivity for “freethought”, which is ungrounded, illogical, circular or infinite regression premise mongering pseudo-logic.

Exhibit three is that the Skeptics never examine skepticism.

Exhibit four is that Skeptics will publicly chastise and ridicule any Skeptic who steps outside of the boundaries of “acceptable” questioning. (e.g. Amazing Randi, Antony Flew).

Skep’tici-sm, n. 1. the philosophical doctrine that the truth of all knowledge must always be in question and that inquiry must be a process of doubting. (note 1)

Believing totally in disbelieving everything? Not exactly. Skeptics feel self-justified in choosing what to be skeptical of, and what to accept on authority (e.g. AGW). In so doing, they have formed an unjustifiable doctrine which they cling to as dogma. They now resemble a cult, one which worships certain tenets and rejects others arbitrarily (or scientistically).

Nick’s adherence to skepticism places him in either a cult status, or at a minimum, one who cannot prove his own disbeliefs, which puts him into a state of holding a non-coherent worldview.

Notes
(1) Webster’s Deluxe Unabridged Dictionary, 2nd Ed. Twentieth Century Edition, Simon and Schuster, NY, NY, 1979.

27 comments:

Hunter said...

Skeptics demand proof for ghosts, pixies, God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and the orbiting tea pot. This lumps the absurd in with the rationally possible.

As you imply, it is rationally possible that an orbiting tea pot exists. We have the ability to put things in orbit and there is over-whelming evidence that tea pots exist but I believe that these are not good reasons to believe there is an orbiting tea pot.
That I can't prove that your orbiting tea pot does not exist is not a good reason to believe it exists.

Stan said...

The idea of the orbiting tea pot is purely to create an absurdity against which to compare another premise in order to discredit the premise by false association. The comparison to an absurdity (a created and admitted false concept), is an implication that the second concept being compared is also a created and admitted false concept, a Fallacy of False Association - But! the attempt is blatantly fraudulent also, because it is a false creation intended to deceive, and its purpose is to avoid discussing the actual issue, based on its own merits or demerits. Those who engage in such deceptions are engaging in intellectual fraud; those who buy into it are victims of their own gullibility, or they are partners to the fraud.

Martin said...

Adam,

That I can't prove that your orbiting tea pot does not exist is not a good reason to believe it exists.

You guys always stuff in this unstated premise, but it is a false one. Theist notes that atheist has not been able to disprove the existence of God. Atheist then falsely infers that theist believes in God only because it hasn't been disproven.

Secondly, you can easily prove the teapot does not exist (as long as we are using the word "proof" to mean inductive proof and not mathematical proof): no space missions have been to Mars yet, and so there are good reasons to believe that there is no teapot out there.

Jeremy said...

I think you miss the point of the analogy Stan.

"That I can't prove that your orbiting tea pot does not exist is not a good reason to believe it exists."

Is exactly right. It's not an argument from false association but an example of the impossibility of proving a negative.

"and its purpose is to avoid discussing the actual issue, based on its own merits or demerits."

What merits? You've been arguing that God exists outside space-time and thus outside our own experience. Unless He chooses to interact, with such interactions being wholly unverifiable. If that is the only merit, what is left in the face of this unintelligible proposition but ridicule?

“George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd.” – Sam Harris

Anonymous said...

Jeremy,

Excuse me for my bad English.

"God exists outside space-time and thus outside our own experience"

If I apply the same logic to the non-locality of the electron, which defies this space-time issue, and has been proved as an experiment over and over again, where's the conclusive evidence that our bodies -or other from nature- do not experience themselves, this kind of phenomenon (eg. our brains)?

"Unless He chooses to interact, with such interactions being wholly unverifiable"

I'm afraid you are doing some assertions aforehand: you seem to confuse the concept of a deity with that of the mind-over-matter, and this one, with the concept of free-will.

If you aforehand deny the existance of mind-over-matter phenomena (lots of evidence are there, which many scientists still deny nowadays), and also free-will, then it's easier to supplant those with the concept of God, and then conclude that it is not a viable perspective to prove a positive.

"If that is the only merit, what is left in the face of this unintelligible proposition but ridicule?"

As you did write implicitly, more conceptually-mixed premises than conclusions, then there's not just one merit, then this may be proven false.

“George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd.” – Sam Harris"

No need to comment. Preconceived ideas without prior knowledge and confirmed as truths are on spot.

Kind Regards.

yonose said...

Jeremy,

Excuse me for my bad English.

"God exists outside space-time and thus outside our own experience"

If I apply the same logic to the non-locality of the electron, which defies this space-time issue, and has been proved as an experiment over and over again, where's the conclusive evidence that our bodies -or other from nature- do not experience themselves, this kind of phenomenon (eg. our brains)?

"Unless He chooses to interact, with such interactions being wholly unverifiable"

I'm afraid you are doing some assertions aforehand: you seem to confuse the concept of a deity with that of the mind-over-matter, and this one, with the concept of free-will.

If you aforehand deny the existance of mind-over-matter phenomena (lots of evidence are there, which many scientists still deny nowadays), and also free-will, then it's easier to supplant those with the concept of God, and then conclude that it is not a viable perspective to prove a positive.

"If that is the only merit, what is left in the face of this unintelligible proposition but ridicule?"

As you did write implicitly, more conceptually-mixed premises than conclusions, then there's not just one merit, then this may be proven false.

“George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd.” – Sam Harris"

No need to comment. Preconceived ideas without prior knowledge and confirmed as truths are on spot.

Kind Regards.

Stan said...

Jeremy,
”I think you miss the point of the analogy Stan.

"That I can't prove that your orbiting tea pot does not exist is not a good reason to believe it exists."

Is exactly right. It's not an argument from false association but an example of the impossibility of proving a negative.”


It is both. The impossibility of proving your position is the logical defect in which you must live: You believe without proof in the non-existence of something. And your belief without proof is so strong that you resort to illogic in order to sustain it.

”"and its purpose is to avoid discussing the actual issue, based on its own merits or demerits."

What merits? You've been arguing that God exists outside space-time and thus outside our own experience. Unless He chooses to interact, with such interactions being wholly unverifiable. If that is the only merit, what is left in the face of this unintelligible proposition but ridicule?”


And again you admit to the failure to deal with even the possibility of a first cause which existed outside and beyond the space-time and mass-energy which it caused.

Ridicule is your only resource for sustaining your belief system, a belief which you hold without evidence or proof, and which you are refusing to discuss in a straight-on fashion: What proof can you provide to sustain your belief that there is no First Cause as described above: the possibility of a first cause which existed outside and beyond the space-time and mass-energy which it caused.?

What proof? Do you have proof for your beliefs? What proof? Please provide us proof!

”“George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd.” – Sam Harris”

If this is your proof, it is a sad day for logic amongst Atheists. Resorting to absurdities is all they have. Where are the logic-based arguments with traceable premises? They have none.

Jeremy said...

Yonose,

My apologizes if I am misunderstanding you. Your English is substantially better than all my second languages combined!

The quotes you attributed to me are in fact my restating of Stan's position, carried over from previous threads. Apologies to Stan if I at all misrepresented them.

My position would be more accurately stated as "The mind is matter". As such "mind over matter phenomenon" is quite to be expected as witness experimentally with placebo and nocebo effects.

I'm going to have to ask you to define Free Will if we are going to discuss if it exists or not. I could argue either way, depending on the definition.

"then there's not just one merit, then this may be proven false."

Certainly, and I look forward to addressing any other merits.

"Preconceived ideas without prior knowledge and confirmed as truths are on spot. "

So .. you don't think he would be crazy if he said he talked to God through his hairdryer? I think I am misunderstanding you. Sorry!

Again, apologies if I am completely misunderstanding you!

Kind regards to yourself as well!

Jeremy said...

"The impossibility of proving your position is the logical defect in which you must live"

I'm okay with that. Since it is impossible to prove a negative, I can resign myself to not performing the impossible.

"You believe without proof in the non-existence of something."

I also believe without proof the non-existence of thousands of other Gods humans have created and discarded over the years. Also I believe in the non-existence of ghosts, pixies, and the orbiting tea pot.

"And again you admit to the failure to deal with even the possibility of a first cause which existed outside and beyond the space-time and mass-energy which it caused."

Um, no .. I am addressing this in the original thread which I posted in. I'm waiting for your reply there. My point is that if this is your only argument:

"God exists outside of the universe. I can provide no evidence. He only interacts with the world as unverifiable phenomenon at times of his choosing."

Then yes, I am done. This is a completely vacuous position to hold. One I do not recognize as even a minor opinion held by theists. It seems only an attempt at defining something impossible to refute. As such, ridicule is the only intelligible proposition remaining.

Also,

"First Cause as described above: the possibility of a first cause which existed outside and beyond the space-time and mass-energy which it caused."

I do not recognize this as a definition of a theistic God.

Resorting to absurdities?? So you too would not think someone mad who claimed they spoke to God through their hairdryer?? I honestly thought that would not be a controversial position to take. I'll stop using that Sam Harris quote.

Stan said...

"The impossibility of proving your position is the logical defect in which you must live"

I'm okay with that. Since it is impossible to prove a negative, I can resign myself to not performing the impossible.”


OK; The admission that it is impossible to prove your belief system places you in a position where it is no longer reasonable to demand that the Theist provide similar proof for his belief system.

” I also believe without proof the non-existence of thousands of other Gods humans have created and discarded over the years. Also I believe in the non-existence of ghosts, pixies, and the orbiting tea pot.

Sure and so do Theists.

”Um, no .. I am addressing this in the original thread which I posted in. I'm waiting for your reply there. My point is that if this is your only argument:

"God exists outside of the universe. I can provide no evidence. He only interacts with the world as unverifiable phenomenon at times of his choosing."

Then yes, I am done. This is a completely vacuous position to hold. One I do not recognize as even a minor opinion held by theists. It seems only an attempt at defining something impossible to refute. As such, ridicule is the only intelligible proposition remaining.”


I suggest that you get some actual books on actual theology; your concept of theism is seemingly based on crank inputs found in Atheist blogs by those who make up what they think Theism must be, regardless of having no contact with it at all, much less any depth.

You are right on this part though: It is not possible to refute it, using the internally non-coherent premises of philosophical naturalism. Which leaves only ridicule, which is the last resort after failed logic. You want to believe what you cannot prove, based on the dogma of a non-coherent philosophy, that is your prerogative. But now it is not rationally possible to be critical of anyone who has logic behind their beliefs, plus grounding in the First Principles for their premises, much less reasons for maintaining a set moral base.

”"First Cause as described above: the possibility of a first cause which existed outside and beyond the space-time and mass-energy which it caused."

I do not recognize this as a definition of a theistic God.”


It’s the definition of a deist god, precursor to the theist god.

”Resorting to absurdities?? So you too would not think someone mad who claimed they spoke to God through their hairdryer?? I honestly thought that would not be a controversial position to take. I'll stop using that Sam Harris quote.”

You’re take is incorrect:

Premise A: GWB prayed.
Premise B: GWB talked through a hair dryer.
Conclusion: GWB was absurd.

The entire purpose of premise B was to create an absurdity which in reality did not exist and had no bearing in reality to what GWB claimed – to be used to falsely imply absurdness to premise A. The class of people to whom this appealed was the class of people who already accepted that premise A was absurd. But to anyone not prejudiced a priori, the addition of an absurdity merely reflects on the creator of the absurdity and his failure to command logic instead of ridicule. The appeal of absurdities is to a special class, not to anyone outside of that class (i.e. it is class warfare at the lowest level). Because of its lack of logic, it is not a rational argument.

Jeremy said...

"Theist provide similar proof for his belief system."

Nope. I've never asked a theist to prove that the material world doesn't exist. That would be similar proof. All I am asking for is SOME EVIDENCE (as opposed to IRREFUTABLE EXHAUSTIVE PROOF) (not shouting, just emphasis)

"Sure and so do Theists."

Sure, but theists make an exception for their own theology and I do not.

""God exists outside of the universe. I can provide no evidence. He only interacts with the world as unverifiable phenomenon at times of his choosing.""

If this is not a completely vacuous position to hold, I invite you to substantiate it beyond "You can't prove it false."

I've read many books on theology. I've found none convincing. In fact, most are so preposterous and soaked in double think it drives me even further from theism.

"It’s the definition of a deist god, precursor to the theist god."

Yup. Sometimes I believe in a deist god. Like I imagine all the atheists will go to heaven because they didn't take things on faith, but instead used their reason and evidence. Or maybe God is like a universal chemist and we're like a petri dish. Who knows. There's no evidence one way or the other.

But I don't really think that's the case. I don't really believe. I just think it is a sort of fun imagining. The default position is not to assume that my imaginations are equivalent to reality.

I feel that you are not understanding the GWB thing.

Premise A: Praying to God through a hairdryer is absurd.
Premise B: The hairdryer has no bearing on the absurdity.
Conclusion: Prayer is absurd.

yonose said...

Jeremy,

"My position would be more accurately stated as "The mind is matter". As such "mind over matter phenomenon" is quite to be expected as witness experimentally with placebo and nocebo effects."

But does not justify mind-over-matter's non-existence, and the placebo and nocebo effects are not just the consequence, but the process itself which involves how mind whether drug induced or not, helps subjectively to make a difference in our material selves... I'm afraid is a bit shallow to say that placebo/nocebo effect is the conclusion of the capabilities of the mind.

Might be, you won't like what I'm about to write, so please thread lightly:

Mind-over-matter happens with or without, divine intervention, and each condition differs from case to case.

If you want evidence about that, I suggest you to read about Sai Baba, and the scientists (skeptical and not skeptical) who have had studied him in detail...

When mind-over-matter is used by shamans and other spiritualists, please consider that the sleigh-of-hand they use so many times does not automatically disprove their intentions as if it were simple trickery, you need to use a more subjective perspective to try to understand it (and believe me, that's a very difficult thing to do if at first you don't have enough guidance about it, and also very difficult to find a reliable one. Before all that I had a time when I was a strong agnostic).

As mind itself works in a rather subjective way, I'm afraid that mind is not only the consequential manifestations of the actions done by the brain itself, mind != brain even if they are strongly inter-relationated, and the mind is also, in conclusion, not necessarily a physical construct.

This is why brain maps are so dificult to develop and standardize, as the explicit locations in the brain that activate in a MRI when we interact with something, keep changing within years, although not in a totally random sense.

Stuff like that is also studied by physicians and neurologists/surgeons to make something like brain-integration therapies.

"I'm going to have to ask you to define Free Will if we are going to discuss if it exists or not. I could argue either way, depending on the definition."

Free-will, as in human being's decisions, and the same here, Free-will can induce this mind-over-matter phenomena in us humans, but it does not mean it should be treated in the same overlaid perspective, as mind-over-matter != free-will.

$Deity 's free-will is something completely different, and does not actually work in an objective sense as you tried to argument above, and also, that's not proof of its non-existence.

"Certainly, and I look forward to addressing any other merits."

I've to see yet, which proposed merits do you actually accept as merits, because as I've said above, free-will and in a chain-like relation, mind-over-matter issues may be attributed as methodologies to get in "touch" with a "supernatural" entity, and those methodologies are the way to understand those merits. As there's more than one methodology, then more than one merit should be there to be understood.

I'm not talking about theocracies here, as that would be out of focus.

yonose said...

(continuing from above)

"So .. you don't think he would be crazy if he said he talked to God through his hairdryer? I think I am misunderstanding you. Sorry!"

Actually, If you think of it literally, as in the material sense, of course that would sound weird, it's obvious, but that's not the point.

The point is, Sam Harris seems to be a total literalist concerning these issues, he does not comprehend them, and unfortunately still adheres to the simplistic idea that every deist/theist thinks in a purely objective/literal way about $Deity , and categorically mistaken he assumes and confirms aforehand that every deist/theist thinks in absurdities. That kind of logic doesn't sustain itself, as it cannot yet, be proved as a truth (as in knowledge).

Kind Regards.

Stan said...

”Nope. I've never asked a theist to prove that the material world doesn't exist. That would be similar proof. All I am asking for is SOME EVIDENCE (as opposed to IRREFUTABLE EXHAUSTIVE PROOF) (not shouting, just emphasis)”

Jeremy I am seriously having trouble knowing whether you are pulling my leg or are making serious statements. I think you are ridiculing all of us here with statements like this. My patience is wearing thin. To assert that “ask[ing] a theist to prove that the material world doesn't exist” is equivalent to asking an Atheist to prove his assertion, is beyond absurd. I think this entire series of conversations is rapidly coming to a close.

Atheists demand that theists provide tangible, physical proof of their assertions (as seen in your demands on miracles).

Theists demand that Atheists provide tangible, physical proof of their assertions (as a fair counter demand.)

” I also believe without proof the non-existence of thousands of other Gods humans have created and discarded over the years. Also I believe in the non-existence of ghosts, pixies, and the orbiting tea pot"

"Sure and so do Theists.”

"Sure, but theists make an exception for their own theology and I do not."


So… what? Why should I care? I mean tell me why. You have given no reasons. Make a case that is not based on absurdity, ridicule or fallacies of association or Category Errors. Make a case that is based on premises which are grounded. Why don't you do this??

”I've read many books on theology. I've found none convincing. In fact, most are so preposterous and soaked in double think it drives me even further from theism."

I'd say you need a good study in logic, and I recommend any college logic book that is not based on Skepticism.

"It’s the definition of a deist god, precursor to the theist god."

Yup. Sometimes I believe in a deist god. Like I imagine all the atheists will go to heaven because they didn't take things on faith, but instead used their reason and evidence. Or maybe God is like a universal chemist and we're like a petri dish. Who knows. There's no evidence one way or the other.”


There’s evidence, you just refuse to address it. It’s called the “First Cause”.

”I feel that you are not understanding the GWB thing.

Premise A: Praying to God through a hairdryer is absurd.
Premise B: The hairdryer has no bearing on the absurdity.
Conclusion: Prayer is absurd.


That is a perfect example of prejudicial thinking. The conclusion is the subpremise, one which is a prejudiced opinion, without any facts to support it. So it is a rationalization. Affirming the consequent, again. You are entitled to it. But you are not entitled to call it logic.

Hunter said...

I gave two reasons why an orbiting teapot was not an absurdity.

1) Tea pots are objects that have been shown to exist.
2) The ability to put objects into orbit exists.

It is possible not rationally impossible and an absurdity.


Stan said to someone: "You believe without proof in the non-existence of something." Here's the problem with your attempt to reverse the standards of evidence - to be consistent you need to believe nearly everything because proof of anything's non-existence is pretty thin on the ground.

But this conversation has moved too much for me to keep track.
~So long,
Adam.

Stan said...

Adam,
The idea of the orbiting teapot was created by Bertrand Russell decades before Sputnik. The orbiting teapot was purposely created as an absurdity. Even within your definition of possibility, the concept remains absurd (no one has actually launched a teapot into orbit) and the concept is used exactly as Russell intended it originally.

However your point here needs discussion:

”to be consistent you need to believe nearly everything because proof of anything's non-existence is pretty thin on the ground.”

That would be absolutely true if there existed no absolutes for grounding logical analysis. And that is the position of some – many – Atheists. But logical analysis is defensible, and the principles of logic can be used to weed out most of the flak. Some of it will be known false by self-evidence. Other parts will need analysis, and some of that will prove fruitless. Some things can be known to be probable by self-evidence along with logical tests for coherence. These last will not be acceptable to those who demand absolute proof, nor those who are dogmatic skeptics in the protection of a favored ideology. But they still work for the rest of us.

” But this conversation has moved too much for me to keep track.
~So long,
Adam.”


Come back when you have time.

Anonymous said...

I've figured out your trick Stan. It's pretty clever. Make any absurd statement you want, and when someone objects, you mock them with their inability to prove a negative. A task you admit is impossible. Regardless how pertinent it is to the current thread. Intellectual hucksterism.

George Carlin mocks religion? Well he can't prove there is no god! What a joke.

Stan said...

Anonymous (please choose a moniker)

You totally miss the point. Atheists show up here with the intent to mock me due to their superior knowledge. What is that knowledge? What is it that makes them superior? What is it that makes Atheists require proof from theists?

It is the knowledge that there is no god.

And that is the only absurdity. Their entire self-image is based on non-knowledge, something for which they have no evidence - despite their overweening pride in being "evidence based", "rational", and "logical". There have been no Atheists show up here who actually understand logic to the point where they can use its principles to argue their beliefs.

Atheism is false. Atheists are neither "evidence based", nor "rational", nor "logical". They adhere to a rationalized ideology.

And that's what I address.

BENTRT said...

If you take this site down Stan I might have to hunt you down- it's too good too invaluable... that goes for if you stop posting too :)

Stan said...

I guess I'll have to keep going then...

Thanks for the comment! It's good to know that there's value here.

Jeremy said...

Stan,

I too appreciate having someone to clash ideas with. I may think you are wrong, but it is always interesting seeing how others think, and contrasting their ideas with my own.

"It is the knowledge that there is no god."

Well obviously I don't KNOW there is no god. I BELIEVE there is no God. The belief is based upon the evidence that theistic claims of the supernatural are erroneous or incoherent. So .. yes. Evidence based, rational and logical.

"And that is the only absurdity."

Interesting. So without that claim to knowledge, you would consider atheism to be rational?

Stan said...

” I've not rejected a First Cause, it is you who are tilting at an argument I did not make.”

Jeremy you are slip-sliding around. Just yesterday you said this:

”No one is ignoring the possibility. I am saying the to claim the First Cause is God is incredibly premature. We have no knowledge of what came before the universe and as such it would be ignorant to claim such.

And as I said up front, I never made the statement you attribute to me calling the first cause "God". You made that up, and I called you on it.

You consistently argue against a first cause. But occasionally you claim to have no problem with Deism. And then you make this statement:

” ”"Actually accepting a First Cause does, in fact, mean accepting something never seen in this universe, precisely because the cause occurred prior to the effect (the universe), as do all causes observed in this universe, where causes exist prior to, and outside of, the effects."

Right. This doesn't sound like an argument FOR your side.”


This sort of thing makes it impossible to carry on any meaningful conversation.

Now you accept Premise B? What does that mean to you?

And now this:

”I BELIEVE there is no God. The belief is based upon the evidence that theistic claims of the supernatural are erroneous or incoherent. So .. yes. Evidence based, rational and logical.”

Show the evidence. That is the point. You claim evidence, you have none. And you claim that is rational and logical.

There is the difference in our thinking. You make claims you cannot back up, and you think that is rational and logical. You have not studied logic, nor rational processes, or you would know better. So all this pseudo-rational talk still boils down to evidence, which you do not have. There has been absolutely no progress, if anything you have regressed into contradictions of your own statements.

Jeremy you are a confused pup. I think this conversation is over. I need to spend time elsewhere.

Jeremy said...

"And as I said up front, I never made the statement you attribute to me calling the first cause "God". You made that up, and I called you on it."

"Now I will narrow the challenge by giving a basic view of what constitutes the term “God”, thereby hopefully eliminating the Atheist confusion of “many, many gods”:
...
First is the perceived necessity of an originating cause of the universe;"

Your own words Stan. Your argument consists entirely of an atheists inability to disprove an originating cause to the universe.

You have now descended from 'merely' arguments from ignorance, demanding prove of a negation and ridicule to flat out lying. The lying is what makes it impossible to carry on a meaningful conversation.

In addition if your definition of God no longer even carries the concept of the originating cause you are literally left with no concept of God. Stan, you are still an atheist.

"You consistently argue against a first cause."

No, what I have consistently argued is that claims of knowledge as to what exists outside the universe are ignorant. That the immaterial is functionally equivalent to non-existence and that theistic claims are incoherent. You have presented ZERO reason or evidence to think otherwise.

"Show the evidence. That is the point. You claim evidence, you have none. And you claim that is rational and logical."

I've pointed out each theistic claims you have presented as evidence for the super natural as flawed.

The difference between us is I don't stick my fingers in my ears when presented with evidence.

So just more lying now. Colour me seriously disappointed. With defenders like you, it is no wonder atheism is at an all time high.

Stan said...

Jeremy with that irrational tirade, you are done here.

While I don't recall exactly the circumstances of the statement you quote as evidence that I am lying, taken at face value it describes a reduction of the Atheist conception of God / gods to the logical concept of a first cause.

Your attack completely ignores your own vacillation in your position, changing it as it suits your current argument. You consistently ignore all references to fallacies in your reasoning chain, failing to take responsibility for your logical errors.

I suggest you study logic, its grounding principles, and rational processes.

You have presented no evidence of logical failures, nor have you presented any hard, empirical, experimental data in refutation. Calling something false without cause is not an argument, it is an opinion. There is no evidence to be had, so you cannot produce it.

For the record, you say:

”No, what I have consistently argued is that claims of knowledge as to what exists outside the universe are ignorant. That the immaterial is functionally equivalent to non-existence and that theistic claims are incoherent. You have presented ZERO reason or evidence to think otherwise.”

That is not evidence, nor even logic; it is opinion without any substantiation. The first assertion has no bearing on evidence for your claim: it is an attack on presumed claims, not support for your claim. The actual claim is that you cannot provide evidence for you claims. And you have not.

Next, functional equivalence is definable only in materialist terms and is subject to the materialist fallacy - which you never address straight on. Plus you cannot prove this assertion.

Third, the assertion that theistic claims are incoherent is without evidence or logical support – but more importantly, it does not address the need for providing material evidentiary support for your position. That assertion is a dodge to prevent the need to provide evidence for support of your own position.

You cannot do so, because your position is a logical fallacy, and you are apparently angered that it is so easily demonstrated to be so.

Regardless, you are now reduced to angry Ad Hominems, a clear sign of failure and retreat.

Adios

Stan said...

Folks,
Jeremy has been removed from this blog for the reasons given above.

Stan

Stan said...

I should add to the above: When a commenter becomes abusive or disruptive or refuses to accept responsibility for his own fallacies, then it becomes an excessive burden on the blog.

While such individuals tend to cry "censorship", their ideas have been given adequate airing and remain on the blog for all to see. They will remain on-line for everyone to examine.

What is being removed is not the ideas of the individual; the individual's disruption and domination while refusing the intellectually honest approach is what is being removed.

It is not necessary to repeat fallacious arguments continually and for the forseeable future in order to see the thought process, the evidence presented (or not) and to draw conclusions on the validity of the premises and conclusion.

Disruptive commenters will be blocked as is required.

Jeremy said...

Ha. You'd rather block me than confirm your assertion and win the debate in a sentence.

ONE sentence. It's apparently already written somewhere. You just have to copy-paste it.

But you block me instead. Is this an action of intellectually honesty?

No. It is the action of a coward and a liar. Oh, look at that .. blocked after quoting you caught in a lie. Yep, better kick me out for being disruptive. Hahhaha

Your entire website is based on a position no one takes. A claim to KNOW there is no god. Protip: No one claims that. So you lose.

Oh, and evolution and ACC are real. There are dozens of examples of speciation documented and the arctic is melting. Just for a start. Hahah but of course that's not evidence in your books.