Wednesday, January 4, 2012

Some rather random thoughts...

I was having a good chuckle over the realization that PZ Meyers actually thought that I fear him and that’s why I did not explicitly link back to his site, when I realized something else:
Any and every Atheist is a perfect example of Atheism which has no moral code, while any and every Christian is an imperfect example of Christianity as embodied by Christ. Christians aspire to a standard that is higher than possible for humans to meet or at least maintain. Atheists aspire to be thought of as automatically “Good Without God”, even while having no Atheist moral code whatsoever, much less one in common.
Atheists not only have no songs (note 1), they have no paragons, no moral authorities, no grounded philosopher, and no grounded philosophy. And it is on this that the major players base their arrogant pose of superiority. Like Skepticism, Atheism is merely a rejection, and nothing more. It is an attack on logic and knowledge which is discomfiting, especially to the young and immature. Neither Skepticism nor Atheism has a positive contribution to make; both merely say, in effect, “I reject”. And neither produces any reason for rejection, other than “I don’t accept” what you say, or maybe “your evidence doesn’t satisfy my needs”.

When pinned down with demands for actual reasons for their belief system, it is typical for an Atheist to resort to circularity or to embedded Materialism rather than grounded logic, assuming that s/he remain engaged to that degree rather than to begin other types of attacks to avoid direct logical analysis. Some will merely sit on their rejection, with no attempt to justify it with logic or data. Others default to Scientism or anti-ecclesiasticism. Still others develop fanciful philosophies which fall immediately under the scrutiny of logical processing. But there is never any decisive material evidence nor grounded logic for supporting their beliefs. Denial is all they have.

Certainly there are influential Atheists who convince young people that science answers all questions: Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, possibly Richard Feynman, probably legions of professors who are Scientistically motivated, and philosophically challenged. Feynman, for all his massive brilliance, berated philosophy in general, which he didn’t even try to understand, and he totally misunderstood Cargo Cults. The works of Dawkins pale beside the brilliance of Feynman. Dawkins’ brief forays into philosophy have been publically panned by actual students of philosophy. Christopher Hitchens blamed all evil in the world on religion in his book subtitled, Religion Poisons Everything”, which he did by the illicit logical gerrymandering of all Atheist atrocities into the category of religion. Daniel Dennett tried to redefine agency reductively in order to fit it into the ideology of Materialism. Sam Harris thinks science can define morals. Massimo Pigliucci claimed that life has no essence unless it is DNA. Atheist absurdities might be acceptable to youngsters, but even many other Atheists balk at much of the Atheist philosophy being produced. Agreement is hard to find.

Interestingly, the Atheist community seems to attack itself with the same verve as it attacks those outsiders who do not think like them. The simple idea of being nice, being civil when discussing issues with each other, much less outsiders, has drawn vicious condemnations from both sides of the Atheist divide. The issue of feminism vs. the crudities of male Atheists on Atheist discussion boards is another fight producing venom and division. It is common to find an Atheist declaring “I’m not like those Atheists! Atheists have only one thing in common: rejection of the existence of a deity.” Not so. All Atheists have several things in common.


All Atheists have this in common: Atheism has no ethic attached to it. It has no philosophy attached to it. Atheism is license to claim freedom from all restraint, precisely because it has no morality or philosophy or logic attached to it. Hence: Free Thinking. When I asked Pigliucci how he avoided circular or infinite regressions in his “analysis of ideas”, our conversation stopped: he would not post my question. There are only three paths involved in validation of premises: (1)grounding in absolute principles; (2)infinite regression; (3)circularity. Free Thinking is not bounded by any absolute grounding. Admitting to absolutes is the beginning of the end for Atheist philosophy. So absolutes are denied, categorically, (and absolutely). Atheism absolutely requires this. So what is left is circularity and infinite regress.

^^^^vvvv^^^^

For an Atheist to claim an ethic or a morality, he cannot do so under the simple banner of Atheism. A person claiming both Atheism and an ethic is claiming two separate ideological positions. So any person desiring to be known as being “Good Without God”, for example, cannot be believed if that claim is made purely under Atheism. That claim must be made under some other banner, that of a specific ethic which clearly defines its concept of what is “Good”; plus it must state the source of its moral authority for such declarations of a moral nature.

Since the “Good Without God” claims are made by Atheist organizations which do not elaborate on what source of ethics might be involved or what “Good” might mean to every Atheist, and apparently are declaring themselves as the source of moral authority, they should not wonder that their claim is rejected as a tenet or property of Atheism. In fact, such a claim is at best an indication of intellectual immaturity at having not considered the truth value of such a claim, and at worst an indication of lying as moral tenet of Atheism. Yet they wonder why their trustworthiness is considered below that of a rapist.

(Note 1) Steve Martin wrote one for them, apparently forgetting about John Lennon’s Imagine.

37 comments:

World of Facts said...

Nothing new in this post; you just rehash your comments... perhaps I should copy/paste mine so that it's clear that what you said here has been addressed?

***

Who accepts Atheism as their worldview? It does not make any sense.

You are correct though. As it has been said repeatedly here on your blog, there is no common ethic among atheists; there is no common values shared by all Atheists. That is universal.

There are probably several values that are share among all Atheists but they are the same as what is shared among all believers of any religion. No more similarities; no more differences.

Atheists who claim an ethic cannot claim that it is an "Atheist ethic", because there is no "Atheist ethic". Any ethic they might claim is derived from sources external to Atheism, and is not Atheist.

That is not 100% correct. The ethic that Atheists adhere to, whatever it is, can be 'Atheist' in the sense that it does not depend on a belief in gods. However, it is not derived from Atheism at all because Atheism does not mean anything. If somebody claim that they have an ethic derived from Atheism, this does not make sense. I don't understand why you point that out.

Atheists who claim to be Good Without God cannot claim that Atheism influenced that Goodness,...

Exactly! But what's the problem?

Atheists claim that they can be good, under a certain ethic system, without having a belief in gods. The point is NOT that they are good because they don't believe, the point is that they can have a system that is not based on a belief in gods.

It works the other way around too. Several Theists, several believers, have an ethics system which is NOT based on their belief in God. I hope I don't have to explain why? Oh well, why not...

Theists can have an ethical system not based on their belief in gods because their god can be detached from human affairs. If that is the case, then the Theist is no different from the Atheist and will have an ethic systems based on something else, on human life perhaps...

...and to be understood, they must define Goodness as it is understood under whatever ethic they have chosen, made up, or stolen. Moreover, they need to explain the source of moral authority for that ethic.

Exactly; but that is true for both Theists and Atheists as I have just mentioned. A Theist that believes in a god that does not intervene in human affaires cannot possibly use that god as a moral authority. Something else needs to be used.

Under Atheism, without any other modifying description, there is no reason for anyone to think that an Atheist has any ethic attached at all, for the simple reason that there is no ethic attached to Atheism.

Correct; but again, it's the same for Theists. They have to tell you more about themselves before you can know anything about them.

Stan said...

Your comments have been addressed in the prior post. They are still false here.

Stan said...

Here's the response:
Hugo,
You make the point exactly:
"Yes, but assigning them characteristics that are not implied by the category is wrong. Unless the person who assign themselves to the category tells you something more, you can only guess and ask to see if you were right."

I cannot believe anything except what the category suggests: Atheism suggests no ethic. Reread your sentence.

"There are probably several values that are share among all Atheists but they are the same as what is shared among all believers of any religion. No more similarities; no more differences."

And here you have made a universal statement. You attack me for making universal statements which I can quite well defend, then you make that statement??

"That is not 100% correct. The ethic that Atheists adhere to, whatever it is, can be 'Atheist' in the sense that it does not depend on a belief in gods."

If it is not embodied in Atheism, it is not Atheist. Atheism has no attached ethic or morality. Repeat: Atheism has no attached ethic or morality.

"Theists can have an ethical system not based on their belief in gods because their god can be detached from human affairs. If that is the case, then the Theist is no different from the Atheist and will have an ethic systems based on something else, on human life perhaps..."

You are describing Deism, not Theism. A very poor Tu Quoque is one which is based on false premises...

"Atheists who claim to be Good Without God cannot claim that Atheism influenced that Goodness,...

Exactly! But what's the problem?"

The problem, obviously, is that they do claim that they are "Good Without God". So it is false, intentionally or ignorantly. Either way, is it is false. So they are promoting falseness. That you do not see a problem here is revealing, Hugo.

"Atheists claim that they can be good, under a certain ethic system, without having a belief in gods. The point is NOT that they are good because they don't believe, the point is that they can have a system that is not based on a belief in gods."

That is absurd. They do not claim some mysterious ethic which they choose not to reveal. They make the specific claim that they are ATHEISTS, GOOD WITHOUT GOD.

The claim is for Atheism and only Atheism. There is no other reference to hidden external moral sources: they are the source of their own moral authority.

Making up excuses for them is a failure in the making. It is a waste of time for me to show you what they actually say. Why do you continually misinterpret what they are saying, unless you are intending to mislead?
(continued)

Stan said...

(from above)
"Exactly; but that is true for both Theists and Atheists as I have just mentioned. A Theist that believes in a god that does not intervene in human affaires cannot possibly use that god as a moral authority. Something else needs to be used."

Again you are referring to Deism, and using that to make false statements concerning Theism.

"Correct; but again, it's the same for Theists. They have to tell you more about themselves before you can know anything about them."

Wrong. Claiming Islam tells you where to look for their ideology. Claiming Shiite further refines it.

"Indeed, but there is no need to go to the other extreme as you do, and lump in together ALL atheists when you encounter certain types of atheists."

If you do not wish to be associated with the characteristics of Atheism, then you need to change your self-description. What I am describing is a belief system, not individuals. You object that individuals don't conform to a category; that is false. A person claiming to believe in P can certainly be thought to adhere to Pism, otherwise he is lying about believing in P. It is useless to claim otherwise.

"In other words, you seem to have a lot to say about 'online' Atheist like PZ Meyer but very little to say about 'real-life' Atheists who simply don't care about this whole Atheistic debate online"

That is patently, blatantly and obviously false. Any person who claims to be an Atheist accepts the characteristics of Atheism, unless he goes out of his way to claim otherwise, with detailed specifics. No specifics, no difference from Atheism.

"This statement, and what comes after, is wrong since Atheism is not a worldview.

Hugo, that takes you into yet another dimension. You are here arguing for your worldview, which you deny is a worldview? Your entire approach to logic is based on your need for Atheo-Materialism to be true. Your entire approach to arguing your case here hinges on your worldview that you can be an Atheist yet not responsible for the characteristics that Atheism attributes to you, and that the freedom Atheism gives you cancels out all logical approaches. You likely have a personally derived morality which you think makes you a special case, but a personal morality is merely a personal opinion, since probably no other Atheist will accept your exact opinion on the subject (i.e. no human, including you, has any moral authority, only personal opinion regrading moral subjects).

It is easier to trust a Shiite to behave as a Shiite than it is to trust an Atheist to behave in any predictable manner based on his Atheism.

Martin said...

Hugo,

I've encouraged Stand to drop the term "atheism", since there is so much battling over semantics that the original point often gets buried. Instead, I encourage Stan, you, and any others to use the word "naturalism", or "materialism", which is broadly defined as a philosophical theory that the only thing that exists are what the hard sciences tell us, generally: matter, energy, space, time, physical laws.

Certainly not all atheists fall under that rubric, but many do. There could be atheists who still believe in some kind of transcendent order, objective morality, and even an afterlife. Many of Stan's criticisms might not apply as well to these rare types of atheists.

The real beef lies between two philosophically interesting worldviews, those that think there is a rational source responsible for the universe, and those who do not. Very roughly, generic theism vs naturalism.

Stan's criticisms here mostly apply to naturalism/materialism. So while I will continue to encourage him to change his wording (although it's built into the title of the blog), I will encourage you to read him charitably and know that he means to criticize naturalism/materialism, not necessarily "atheism" in the strict pedantic sense of the word.

Stan said...

What is the strict pedantic sense of the word?

Chris said...

Buddhism is an "a-theistic" religion. And yet, some of the most scathing criticisms of scientific materialism have come from that quarter.

Stan said...

I use the word Atheism for these reasons:
First, Materialism is a subset of Atheism, not vice-versa. An Atheist doesn't have to be a materialist, but a materialist has to be an Atheist. Generally they are the same thing, because the Atheists out on the prowl haven't discriminated enough to separate them to any real degree.

Second, there are many Atheists out there, and lots of them don't use Materialism in their reasons. They use anti-ecclesiasticism, for example.

I address both Atheism and Materialism. Sometimes I lump them together when they coincide. But Atheism cannot be replaced by Materialism alone.

When Materialism is used to justify Atheism, then they coincide, and the falsness of Atheism is due to the falseness of Materialism.

But when the deity is rejected for no reason other than obstinance, for example, then Atheism can be shown to be false without any reference to Materialism.

Martin said...

Stan,

"Pedantic use" meaning that whenever you say that atheism is a belief system, or whatever, they come out of the woodwork to tell you that atheism is just a lack of belief. You know what I'm talking about. The vast majority of the ones who come by here are scientistic materialists, but if you use the term "atheism", they'll hop all over you and quibble semantics.

The REAL debate is between naturalism and theism, and that's where I think the meat lies. The anti-ecclisiastical atheists (the type I used to be; good call on that terminology!) are usually also materialists of a scientistic bend, I find. Although they haven't usually thought it through, from my experience.

Anyhoo, I just think you'd get more mileage out of using different terminology, since the word "atheism", despite yours and my attempts, is essentially ruined at this point. There is no changing the tide of culture.

World of Facts said...

I cannot believe anything except what the category suggests: Atheism suggests no ethic. Reread your sentence.

Yes, we agree on that. Again, what's the problem?

And here you have made a universal statement. You attack me for making universal statements which I can quite well defend, then you make that statement??

Yes I am making a universal statement, but a negative one. As you just told me, reread the sentence. I mean that you cannot say anything about someone who tells you he/she believes in God, just like you cannot say anything about someone who tells you he/she does NOT believe in gods.

Your comparison with Muslim Shiite is pointless. It's not because a person identifies themselves as a member of a particular religious group that you can know exactly what they think is moral or not. Moreover, there are hundreds of religious denominations that you have never heard of, so my point stands: you cannot know what someone believe simply because they tell you they believe in a god. The only thing you know is just that: they believe in God!

If it is not embodied in Atheism, it is not Atheist. Atheism has no attached ethic or morality. Repeat: Atheism has no attached ethic or morality.

Repeat after me: Hugo AGREES.

You are describing Deism, not Theism. A very poor Tu Quoque is one which is based on false premises...

That actually supports my point. If someone tells you they believe in God, you cannot even know if they are a Deist or a Theist!

The problem, obviously, is that they do claim that they are "Good Without God". So it is false, intentionally or ignorantly. Either way, is it is false. .....

Why do you try so hard to put words in the mouth of others and/or thoughts in the minds of others? You seem to forget the context of these phrases 'Good Without God'. It only means that it is possible to have an ethical system, a moral system, values, or whatever you want to call them, without believing in a god.

Repeat: it does not mean 'Good BECAUSE I don't believe in God'. Everybody here keeps telling you that it is NOT what it means. The reasons should be obvious: it does not even make sense!

Everything you write after the quote I posted is derived from the wrong interpretation. I don't understand why you think I am the one who misunderstand the position of other atheists... it's really strange.

Perhaps you should take it from another angle. If nobody was criticizing atheists for being immoral, or without values and ethics, do you think these Atheist groups would try to spread the same message?

World of Facts said...

If you do not wish to be associated with the characteristics of Atheism, then you need to change your self-description.

But I don't believe in gods! What am I supposed to tell you?

What I am describing is a belief system, not individuals.

What you are doing is picking on some Atheists, vocal atheists like PZ Meyers or the ones that dare come to your blog, and then attack them for what you think they think, merely because they tell you they don't believe in gods. That's what I find wrong.

Note one thing though. I do agree with you quite often. That's why I wanted to insist on the fact that what PZ wrote to you was wrong. I don't care that he is an atheist, what he did was a generalization of theists; he basically said that it's not surprising for theists to be coward who don't link to other blogs. I find that ridiculous because it has nothing to do with being a believer in god in general.

You object that individuals don't conform to a category; that is false. A person claiming to believe in P can certainly be thought to adhere to Pism, otherwise he is lying about believing in P. It is useless to claim otherwise.

I object to your attribution of other characteristics to people who believe in 'P' simply because they believe in 'P' and you have a pre-conceived idea of what people who believe in 'P' are supposed to believe/do according to you.

That is patently, blatantly and obviously false. Any person who claims to be an Atheist accepts the characteristics of Atheism, unless he goes out of his way to claim otherwise, with detailed specifics. No specifics, no difference from Atheism.

You can repeat that as often as you want but you will always be wrong. Atheism means nothing. It is a disbelief in gods and that's it. Martin is explaining it clearly in this comment thread.

Don't you remember the example I gave? With my cousin? He is an atheist, just like me, because he does not believe a god exists. But don't ask him if he believes that all that exist can be defined in material terms; he would have no clue what you are talking about.

Hugo, that takes you into yet another dimension. You are here arguing for your worldview, which you deny is a worldview?

I don't deny it is a worldview, I am telling you: IT IS NOT A WORLDVIEW. It is not mine, and it is not the worldview of anybody I know. It is absurd to claim it's a worldview because it does not yield any basic principles on which to build beliefs. Nobody starts they sets of beliefs with 'because I don't believe in gods, I believe that...'. That is absurd.

World of Facts said...

Your entire approach to logic is based on your need for Atheo-Materialism to be true.

That's putting thoughts in my mind. You are wrong. I don't assume Atheo-Materialism to be true and I told you several times already that it is a CONCLUSION of the way I see the world.

You likely have a personally derived morality which you think makes you a special case, but a personal morality is merely a personal opinion, since probably no other Atheist will accept your exact opinion on the subject (i.e. no human, including you, has any moral authority, only personal opinion regrading moral subjects).

That is partially correct; I believe that I have my own personal morality. I don't think I am special though, not at all, because I think that all humans have their own personal morality. You have to be in serious denial to pretend that using a label such as 'Christian' is enough to know what one person finds moral or not...

Note that I find it extremely weird that you jump from morality to defending my position logically, back to morality again. You are all over the map, not making good points concerning anything. The only thing you do is say that I am wrong concerning things I don't even believe in. All I see you doing is pretending that you know myself better than me simply because I say 'no, I don't believe in any gods'.

It is easier to trust a Shiite to behave as a Shiite than it is to trust an Atheist to behave in any predictable manner based on his Atheism.

What about predicting that any human being will behave like any other human being? Isn't there some sort of default assumptions that people are not crazy?

Seriously, when was the last time you asked someone 'hey what's your religion?' and then get a good idea of how they are going to behave? This is absurd, we never do that because it does not mean anything. We don't judges people because of the label they give themselves, generally speaking we judge people based on what they do or what they say.

We live in a real world Stan, with other real people. Never forget that...

World of Facts said...

Actually Stan, forget everything I just said (well not literally, you can still reply if you want but we are running in circles I am afraid).

Let me give you a realistic scenario and you will then explain to me why you think the way you do.

Let's say that I am in front of you, with my girlfriend next to me. We want to have a little chat about our sense of morality and values.

Would you ask us: do you believe in God?

If yes, what does that tell you?

Now, the answer coming from me would be 'no' but the answer coming from my girlfriend would be 'yes'.

What would then be your reaction? What would that tell you about our values? What would that tell you about the 'expected behaviors' that you mentioned?

Finally, the tricky part is this:

If you were then to ask us questions about moral issues, when do you think that our answers would differ and why?

Please not that I am not trying to prove you wrong concerning anything here; not at all. It just struck me that all this conversion is really bizarre to me because I simply don't understand where you get your impressions of atheists and what it means for you. I don't understand what kind of interpretation you can make solely based on the question 'Do you believe in God?'

Sarah said...

Atheists have ethics because they are human.

Stan said...

Sarah,
Being human guarantees ethics? Can you not envision the Atheist leaders and followers of the Soviet Union? Unless you mean ethics of mass murder, and totalitarianism, they had no principles recognizable as "ethics". The gulag disproves that idea. Or perhaps they have been demoted to subhuman; I might go with that, but then the problem of who gets to demote whom arises. No, it is not defensible to attribute ethics to merely being human.

Sarah said...

http://planetdocumentary.com/documentaries/return-to-africa-s-witch-children

Here's your Christian ethics. Mass murder. Not in the distant past. Today.

This disproves the idea of Christian ethics.

Stan said...

"Your comparison with Muslim Shiite is pointless. It's not because a person identifies themselves as a member of a particular religious group that you can know exactly what they think is moral or not. Moreover, there are hundreds of religious denominations that you have never heard of, so my point stands: you cannot know what someone believe simply because they tell you they believe in a god. The only thing you know is just that: they believe in God!"

Hugo, what do you hope to gain by pursuing this into the mud? You consistently and persistently misinterpret what I say, and follow up with false accusations. I have given my reasons, including syllogistically, which you refuse to accept. So you cover the blog in ever more pages of BS... why do you do that? What do you possibly have to gain by making yourself a nuisance on an issue that is easily settled: either you accept my reasons or don't. I really don't care whether you do or don't. Especially given the lack of logic.

So I will not respond to any more of this nonsense from you. If other commenters want to pursue this endless pursuit of yours, then they are free to do so. I will not.

World of Facts said...

@Stan

Running away from my points twice in two days, really?

Perhaps you are the one who did not understand what I meant?

In any case, I agreed that we were running in circles and presented you with a real-life situation to try to make you understand what I meant. Are you going to ignore that too?

World of Facts said...

Just thought of another quick point; again, you can ignore if you want because I think the "real-life" example is more useful to the discussion, but...

I really don't see what you find wrong with the quote you put:

"Your comparison with Muslim Shiite is pointless. It's not because a person identifies themselves as a member of a particular religious group that you can know exactly what they think is moral or not. Moreover, there are hundreds of religious denominations that you have never heard of, so my point stands: you cannot know what someone believe simply because they tell you they believe in a god. The only thing you know is just that: they believe in God!"

What's wrong with this statement?

Isn't true that, no matter the religion, you cannot truly know what someone believes or find moral or not just by the title of their religion?

Can you really say that you know the ethics and moral of someone who says that he is a Christian, or a Muslim, or... whatever else?

That's my point. Your only answer seems to be that it's BS... weird. I am honestly not putting random things or meaningless things or purpose. But again, you don't believe me if I say I 'honestly' do something so the point is irrelevant...

Stan said...

Hugo,
Everything about your presence here is circular. You ignore all the actual arguments in favor of your own prejudices. You insist that your own prejudice be accepted, and you place blizzards of comments saying the same thing over and over, which requires the same response from me, over and over.

Here is a final example of your absurd beliefs and arguments:

"What about predicting that any human being will behave like any other human being? Isn't there some sort of default assumptions that people are not crazy?"

Do you lock the doors on your car? Do you lock the doors on your house? Do you invite everyone off the street to sleep in your house? Really? Do you?

"Seriously, when was the last time you asked someone 'hey what's your religion?' and then get a good idea of how they are going to behave? This is absurd, we never do that because it does not mean anything. We don't judges people because of the label they give themselves, generally speaking we judge people based on what they do or what they say."

Seriously, this blog is about Atheism, its illogic and its irrational beliefs. What you are doing/saying is irrational. You are twisting the concept for your own purposes. That has been shown to you over and over, including syllogistically. You don't care. You especially don't care about actual disciplined logic or circularity faults. You have an agenda which you will jam down our throats if you have to keyboard all day long. You charge ahead full steam with your personal crusade to vindicate Atheists from their own irrationality... using irrational assertions.

If I came across you and your girlfriend on the street, I would check my wallet. That's because I know how you think.

Stan said...

I can't not respond to this:

Hugo said,
"Running away from my points twice in two days, really?

Perhaps you are the one who did not understand what I meant?"


When a conversation circles the drain, it is common sense to abort it. I understand your points, and I showed you why they don't apply. There's nothing left to do, but allow you to suck me down the drain with you. I won't do that.

BTW, your comments has taken on a moral, evangelical tone, in fact turning into a moral rant: your position MUST be accepted as a refutation, regardless of its non-applicability, and circularity. Atheists are NOT good because they are people and people are good. That argument is too obviously wrong to be rational in any sense.

World of Facts said...

Stan said:

If I came across you and your girlfriend on the street, I would check my wallet. That's because I know how you think.

I think that summarizes everything you have to say about Atheists.

Thank you for proving me right Stan. You made my day.

Nohm said...

Stan, I'm curious: why do you engage in failed mind-reading?

By that, I mean, why do you suggest that people have particular views and motives that they themselves have not advocated or hold?

A perfect example of this would be "Your entire approach to logic is based on your need for Atheo-Materialism to be true".

It's something I'm continuously fascinated about; why not ask a person what their views are, instead of incorrectly telling them what their views are?

I'm not scolding you; this is a strong curiosity of mine and I'm wondering if you have any insight into why you do this.

Stan said...

You certainly can claim to be right, and within your particular mindset and worldview you match up; but you cannot claim to be logical, nor can you claim honesty because honesty includes intellectual honesty, which in turn requires acquiescing to logical failures in order to fix them. Persistence in illogic is not a positive character trait.

Yes I fail your personal moral declarations, and happily so. Your declarations that I must accept your particular personal ethic instead of logic are rejected. And your attempt to force your presumption of authority to dictate ethics is also rejected.

I am happy to maintain discussions within the parameters of the discipline of logic and I will not be brow beaten by personal morality attacks. These constraints eliminate you.

As before, if anyone else here wishes to engage you, they are welcome.

World of Facts said...

@Nohm

Hopefully your approach will yield some answers because I really don't understand why he does that either...

Actually, what I understand is that, because he claims that he was an Atheist for several decades, that leads him to believe that he understands Atheists, or that he even knows how they think.

What does not make any sense is that I doubt that when he was an Atheist he would have stolen the wallet of random people on the street, just to name that example...

Moreover, what's really annoying is that there is no way that you can tell Stan that he is wrong regarding Atheism as a non-worldview. Each time I insist on what it means for me, an atheist, to be an atheist, he says I am wrong! He even claims that I am illogical, irrational and so on. That is the most bizarre thing I have ever heard! How can someone like him, who knows the name of all logical fallacies by hearth and insist on the importance of reason and logic, be so... illogical!

How can he say directly to me that I should drop the label atheist if I don't like what atheist means!? I am suppose to start believing some random god just because Stan does not believe what I say Atheism means for me... as an Atheist?

Stan said...

Nohm says,
"...failed mind reading..."
and,
"A perfect example of this would be "Your entire approach to logic is based on your need for Atheo-Materialism to be true".

It's something I'm continuously fascinated about; why not ask a person what their views are, instead of incorrectly telling them what their views are?"


It's true that I did say that. I probably would satisfy Atheists more if I behaved the way that most Christians do, and fold up under Atheist attack. But I take information which is pounded in here, and then I let the Atheist know how it stacks up under logical scrutiny. A person who insists on his rationality, but insists even more stringently that I have to accept a Materialism theory which is based on circularity, and refuses to back away from the validity of his Materialism theory despite its circularity, can, I think, clearly be described as needing that theory to be true regardless of how flawed and irrational it is.

But I could have been more politically correct, perhaps. On the other hand, some individuals won't accept the principles of the discipline of logic no matter how they are bludgeoned with them.

Had I softened the blow with dodge words such as "perhaps", "maybe", or "possibly", the claim against me would still be lodged, so why should I bother with prissy-nicey when it makes no difference. The fact that a person defends - loud and long - a demonstrably false theory, T, in the face of many, many demonstrations of its falseness indicates that the person "wants" that theory, T, to be true. I see nothing wrong with saying it, and saying it to his face.

Moreover, when a person demands to be considered honest just on the basis of his Atheism, he is clearly out of touch with reality. And making the demand into a moral precept which makes anyone who sees through it immoral, leads one to wonder about the issue of sanity (I hope that statement was gentle and kind and indirect enough).

There is more than one Atheist here who is defending his circular arguments for Materialism, in the full knowledge that the circular arguments he makes are false, based on the discipline of logical analysis. I fully intend to keep them informed of their fallacies, which are made specifically for the defense of Materialism - which they obviously want to be true regardless of what must be violated to do it.

There is no mind-reading as you charge, presumptively. It is obvious to the casual observer.

Nohm said...

Hi Stan,

Well, I disagree with everything you said, but "fair enough" and all that. If you'd like to continue this discussion, I can point out many other places where you've engaged in failed mind-reading (i.e., telling other people what they think/believe, or what their opinions are) on your blog in the comments.

To be clear, I'm certainly not asking you to be politically correct; I'm stating that there's this specific thing that some people do where they tell others what they (i.e., the others) think or what their (i.e., the others) motives are, instead of asking. It's a fascination of mine, and I've been interested in a long time into understanding the psychology of people, like yourself, who do it.

It's possible that you don't even realize that you do it. If so, I shrug.

To respond to one thing you did write in your last comment, regarding this issue:

"A person who insists on his rationality, but insists even more stringently that I have to accept a Materialism theory which is based on circularity, and refuses to back away from the validity of his Materialism theory despite its circularity, can, I think, clearly be described as needing that theory to be true regardless of how flawed and irrational it is."

Here you can see that you state that the person can "clearly be described as needing that theory to be true regardless of how flawed and irrational it is."

You don't seem to consider any other alternatives, which is where my fascination comes from.

If I said that your beliefs, due to my opinion that they're illogical, are clearly needed to be true for you regardless of how flawed and irrational they are, would that persuade you at all? Would you find that to be the least bit compelling?

My bet is that you'd object, and say that no, those are absolutely not the reason why you have your beliefs.

Also, who "insists even more stringently that [you, Stan, has] to accept a Materialism theory"? I didn't see that, but it's possible that I simply forgot reading the comment.

Again, none of this is me scolding you; this is purely an observation, and not a judgment. I'm just very curious why a person does this. Any further insight you have would be much appreciated.

Nohm said...

Hi Stan,

One other thing.

You wrote: "Moreover, when a person demands to be considered honest just on the basis of his Atheism, he is clearly out of touch with reality."

I missed where someone said this... would you please point it out to me? I agree that it would be strange for someone to be considered honest just on the basis of his atheism, but I'm not convinced (although I'd certainly be shocked and surprised) that someone actually says this.

I would have to see the original quote to see if it's failed mind-reading or if the person actually believes such a strange thing.

Nats said...

"he claims that he was an Atheist for several decades, ...
What does not make any sense is that I doubt that when he was an Atheist he would have stolen the wallet of random people on the street, just to name that example..."


I once debated a Christian who said that if I could prove God didn't exist he would kill me and rape my daughter and he said there was no reason for an atheist not the murder and rape. (To him, morality is ONLY obeying God.) I asked him how many people he raped and killed in the five decades he was supposedly an atheist.

There are many schools of thought on ethics and morality. Some groups will define morality in ways that assert the dominance of that group.

World of Facts said...

...I take information which is pounded in here, and then I let the Atheist know how it stacks up under logical scrutiny.

You do the exact opposite. You attack strawman such as:
'Atheists think they are good because they don't believe in God'.

The fact that a person defends - loud and long - a demonstrably false theory, T, ...

The problem is that people you are talking to are telling you: No I don't believe in 'T'.

...when a person demands to be considered honest just on the basis of his Atheism, he is clearly out of touch with reality...

Strawman. (This will answer Nohm's question)
You want to avoid talking to me but that is clearly a response to what I keep telling you... and you got it wrong. That's not what I am saying. Everything I had to say about honesty can be summarized by what's found in this comment thread. I never, and would never, claim that I am good because I don't believe in God.

...defending his circular arguments for Materialism, in the full knowledge that the circular arguments he makes are false, based on the discipline of logical analysis...

You analyze your own version in your own mind... So perhaps I can finally go back the real issues that we are supposed to discuss here: differences in worldviews.

Yours (and correct me if I am wrong!) starts with:
- 'I exist as an immaterial mind', as you posted on another comment thread.
Your position thus assumes the immaterial exists, but the material could possibly not exist.
This means that it's possible for the immaterial to exist without the material.

Mine starts with:
- 'I exist as a both a material body and an immaterial mind'
I don't assume the immaterial does not exist, and the material cannot not exist or else reality would be an illusion.
I thus don't have any conclusion regarding the existence of immaterial things yet.

Stan said...

Nohm,
Read Hugo's comments as far back as they go. This issue has been going on for quite a while. A large part of the conversation occurred by email, after he was banned originally. You will have to ask Hugo for permission to release those messages, and he'll have to do it himself; I won't in order to prevent any charges of me tampering with them. Be forewarned, they are very long.

Actually this thread starts with a false representation of my statements, which Hugo sets up in order to call it a fallacy. I haven't reread the entire thread, but you can browse through it. Then ask me any question.

World of Facts said...

Actually this thread starts with a false representation of my statements, which Hugo sets up in order to call it a fallacy.

I would love to correct/retract any false statement I make. Please tell me what you mean!

Stan said...

Nohm,
For a view of Hugo's "long syllogism" on justifying materialism by assuming it to be true, go here:

http://atheism-analyzed.blogspot.com/2011/11/from-pzs-place-gulsah-okmen-turkey-on.html?showComment=1323252919896#c4300805410126377664

The particular information you requested is in the emails: please ask Hugo to release them for your perusal.

World of Facts said...

The particular information you requested is in the emails: please ask Hugo to release them for your perusal.

I would not mind, but it is not related to the current thread.

The honesty-related point I made in the email was concerning the fact that I truly believe to be logical. Nothing else.

In other words, I am not presenting reasoning that is wrong on purpose only to serve a pre-defined conclusion.

Stan, by accusing Atheists of wanting him to accept an illogical position, does not understand this tiny bit of honesty I am talking about.

Stan said...

Hugo,
That's Bullshit. Either release your emails (which I will check for accuracy) or stop making false statements about them.

Your time here is becoming limited. It is becoming apparent that I erred in creating an amnesty for those incapable of adhering to the logical standards of thinking.

Stan said...

PZ actually has a link to a list of people banned from his blog. I need to create the same sort of list, but with links to their comments for reference, so that sock puppets are also avoided. It's unfortunate that it comes to this, especially when all that is asked of commenters is that they be civil and accept logic as the basis of discussion.

If that needs clarification, by logic I mean the accepted methods of inductive and deductive logic - primarily deductive - as they are presented in college textbooks. This does not mean that "I think I am logical" is an acceptable approach to rational thinking.

If a commenter cannot even study logic enough to know what it actually is, and then insists on dominating discussions with absolute illogic, he is in jeopardy of losing his privileges here. Permanently.

Stan said...

For anyone interested, Hugo has sent me the emails for publication. They are referenced on the right column in a temporary page.

There is a relevant section in messages 5 and 7.

Stan