Monday, June 4, 2012

Points Requiring Emphasis, First Addendum

Here are some points that might be getting lost in the shimmering heat of Atheist wit and riposte:

1. This blog is about Atheism, and whether it is a rational position and can be defended using disciplined logical processes and/or empirical experimental data. This blog is not about Theism, although Atheist concepts of basic Theist positions must be corrected from time to time. So this blog is focused and asymmetrical.

2. Atheism has consequences. For example, Atheists cannot generate trust based on the Atheist Moral Code which doesn’t exist. If one knows only that a person is an Atheist, a lack of trust in that person is a rational position to take, even for other Atheists.

Atheists recoil in horror at this consequence, and declare it to be hate speech; but they present no contrary position which they can defend.

There are other consequences such as the common denial of absolutes, which eliminates any truth value for Atheist positions. This includes the elimination, a la Nietzsche, of good and evil, except as redefined by the individual Atheist. In general, evil is thought not to actually exist, except by the Theist God, which the Atheists presume the personal moral authority to judge.

Also eliminated along with absolutes is the submission to disciplined, logical deductive rules for argumentation. Submission to anything other than self becomes anathema, unless one could get arrested for it, and in that case Atheists see themselves as "good". Refusal to submit to overarching rules of logic results in (again Nietzschean) anti-rationalism. So rationalization becomes dominant, along with personal attacks and ridicule.

3. Because Atheism is only about rejection and rejectionism, it presents no positive characteristics in and of itself. (Total freedom from absolutes is not a positive characteristic). In fact, the commonly held list of beneficial character traits is frequently held as religious bias, and also too hard for some people and therefore discriminatory.

4. A rejection of a proposition requires a reason for rejecting that proposition; if there is no reason given, or if giving a reason is refused, then that rejection is seen as capricious opinion without a rational basis, and therefore is dogmatic faith based only on ornery rejectionism and nothing more.

5. Atheists who wish to defend their rejection of the Theist proposition are invited to make their case by engaging in the logic of their reasons for rejecting the proposition, and/or presenting the empirical data which they use to make their rejection decisive.

6. Attacking the writers who comment and post here is not an argument; it is a childish, petulant, logical fallacy.

7. Ridicule is not an argument.

8. I frequently view Nietzsche as perhaps the only honest Atheist. He declared his rejections and then he acknowledged the consequences of those rejections. Modern Atheists wish to avoid even claiming their rejectionism, much less admitting that there are any consequences. Compared to Neitzsche, that denial is intellectual cowardice and is totally trivial.

9. Atheist arguments which are based on their assessment of the morality of any proposition, person or deity are to be immediately rejected. This is based on the obvious lack of a moral position which inheres in Atheism as a basis for making moral judgments. Any moral declaration by an Atheist is not based on Atheism, it is based on personal opinion, which has been fabricated by some human, possibly himself, as to what morality must be in his view. Atheists have no moral authority to make moral decisions for any human other than for themselves. And most absurdly, to make moral declarations on an existing deity is the highest possible folly; to make moral declarations on a non-existent, fictional deity is merely literary criticism done without literary knowledge and on a faux moral basis.

These are some of the main points, and there are probably more. I should update this, adding as time progresses. I’ll try to remember to do that.

Addendum:
Added point 9.

92 comments:

Thesauros said...

Well, sir, I've been blogging about atheism for several years, reading blogs about atheism for a few more and never in all that time have I ever been tempted to "follow" another blog - until now. You may not want me as a faithful reader but, you got me.

Good work. Nice post - as usual

Martin said...

This blog is about Atheism, and whether it is a rational position

Except that atheism is not a position, it is a LACK of belief and makes no positive claims.

Now, did you know that your mind is entirely physical? And that all that exists is what physics describes? And that supernatural stuff is as likely as an invisible fire breathing dragon in your garage? And that all theistic arguments are miserable failures? And in fact that there is NO evidence AT ALL for theism? And that science is the best way of knowing anything?

And that [insert unsupported physicalist claim here]?

Stan said...

Martin,
Yep, they make no claims at all. Ever. Har!

Stan said...

Thesauros,
Welcome aboard, and feel free to jump in at any time!

Thesauros said...

And in fact that there is NO evidence AT ALL for theism?

You mean other than a life-supporting, mathematically precise, moral universe.

Fred said...

I like to call their moral relativism social-phrenia.

Storm said...

And we all came from monkeys and humans somehow have the power to heat up the whole world and the world is millions of years old!

godless said...

And a man born two thousand years ago turned water into wine and then rose from the dead despite there being absolutely no historical record of such a person! Hahaha

Thesauros said...

Oh, hey! I didn't know you got visitors from the fringes.

You find them at holocaust sites as well. "Didn't happen. Never existed."

People like godless wouldn't know evidence if they were blowing their noses with it. When you don't like a certain reality, denial is the quickest exit.

World of Facts said...

Rod is alive!! It's a miracle!

Yes, you two will like each other I think. Same kind of approach to "prove" that Creator God exists...

godless said...

Yea that's definitely a valid comparison.

I think it's hilarious that the guy above me posts that evolution and geology is a crock, but pointing out there is no contemporaneous evidence of Jesus makes me the evidence denier.

Seriously. Point me to a single author, outside the gospels, who wrote about Jesus during his lifetime. Anything even vaguely resembling a first hand account?

Stan said...

Documentation of the existence of Jesus by Roman Historians:

1. Josephus:
(a) The Antiquities;
(b) Testimonium Flavianum;

2. Tacitus: Annals;

3. Pliny the Younger: Letters;

4. Talmud: references to Jesus;

Stan said...

Correction: Talmud was Jewish corroboration, not Roman.

godless said...

Titus Flavius Josephus (37 – c. 100)

Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117)

Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus, born Gaius Caecilius or Gaius Caecilius Cilo (61 AD – ca. 112 AD)

Talmud
Estimated Range of Dating: 188-217 A.D.

Not during the time of Jesus. Not an eyewitness. Not a first hand account. Even less that offers anything substantiating his supposed divinity.

As far as evidence for Jesus of the Bible, this isn't even worth wiping my nose with. It's just a blatant failure to the offered challenge.

Martin said...

godless,

There aren't any from Jesus' lifetime.

However:

* The authors of the gospels had to go to great fudging lengths to get Jesus into Bethlehem. Both implausible stories. This strongly indicates that a real person was born inconveniently in Nazareth, when the gospel authors wanted him to be from Bethlehem so he would be the messiah.

* The predictions that Jesus would return during the lifetime of his followers continues to be whittled down in each gospel. In the next one, it's some followers. Then just one. This strongly indicates a real prediction from a real person, and the resulting attempts to deal with the fact that the prophecy wasn't coming true.

* Women eyewitnesses at the tomb. Women were not trustworthy witnesses at the time. If the story were made up whole cloth, they would most likely have had men, or even some of the apostles, show up to discover the tomb empty.

Thesauros said...

I think you're right godless. You should go with your gut on this one.

Stan said...

godless,
Now I get it. You have personal requirements that go far beyond the reuirements of actual legitimate historians. That's why you reject the actual first hand observations and demand other first hand observations.

Let's get the whole picture: your belief system has much less evidence than Christianity has. Your belief system has none. Zero. Not a lick of evidence. Nada. And certainly no scientific knowledge of its validity.

So you spout just more Skeptical Rejectionism in defense of your dogma. You qualify as a denialist. Actually I suspect that next you will demand actual scientific evidence for all historical claims, since science is the only source of knowledge in your personal opinion.

What you demand is becoming less and less interesting; you are backed into a corner which you can't think your way out of. The historicty of Jesus and Nero's persecution of Christians is accepted, and yet you are using your spurious denialism of it to avoid justifying all the previous errors you have made.

I could make a list of your errors if you like, so you can address them one by one. Usually when I do that for a dodging Atheist he will scream "Gishing" and vamoose out the nearest exit in a cloud of dust.

I really don't wish for you to leave, though, you are a hoot. Kinda like one of those baloon clown punching bags, you always pop right back up saying "missed me, hahaha".

So: after Jesus, what have you got that will help you avoid making a scientific proof that there is no non-physical agent??

Here's a fun fact: Your belief system has much less evidence than Jesus does. Your belief system has no evidence. NONE. It is a blind belief system. A dogmatic religion.

Stan said...

godless,
Don't forget, you still haven't provided a scientific refutation of the existence of a non-physical agent.

Nope. Still haven't done that, have you? How else can you refute god(s), if you don't - you know - refute god(s)?

We are waiting.

godless said...

Hahah I'm glad you think I'm so funny. I guess mockery is all you have left.

Those are some good points there Martin. I think it is at least plausible that there existed a preacher named Jesus. Yeshua or similar. Of course your points also imply that the story included a lot of forgery to give him the appearance of divinity. But what you say is plausible, reasonable, consistent, and at least related to the subject matter.

Theosaurus? A persons documented lifespan is my gut? Interesting. You haven't quite got the ridicule down right though. Pay more attention to Stan. You gotta call me a radical denialist and dogmatic materialist. Using big words carries a stronger illusion of education than "gut".

Aw Stan, you sound like you are going to cry. What's the matter? Your attempt miss the challenge by a country mile so you wanna skew the argument some more. Are you sure I didn't claim there is scientific evidence that proves Jesus is a velociraptor?

That's why you reject the actual first hand observations and demand other first hand observations.

Wow, yeah that makes a lot of sense. Just so we are clear, when someone is born well after a person has died, that person is not able to make "first hand observations".

Don't forget, you still haven't provided a scientific refutation of the existence of a non-physical agent.

Gee, maybe it's because I'm not idiot enough to claim I posses such?

Stan said...

"Don't forget, you still haven't provided a scientific refutation of the existence of a non-physical agent.

Gee, maybe it's because I'm not idiot enough to claim I posses such?"


Then, under your own theory of knowledge, you cannot refute the existence in question? Yet you believe otherwise, without either evidence or refutation to support your belief? Are you prepared to admit that your belief system is blind belief?

Martin said...

godless,

Of course your points also imply that the story included a lot of forgery to give him the appearance of divinity.

Which is a completely different point. The point is: "Jesus never existed" theories are fringe, and not take seriously by genuine experts in that topic, whether Christian or not. It really is akin to young earth creationism, Holocaust denial, etc. It's a wackaloon theory, and it's amazing to watch so many atheists swallow it wholesale just because it gets them as far away from the HATED Christians as possible.

Stan said...

"That's why you reject the actual first hand observations and demand other first hand observations.

Wow, yeah that makes a lot of sense. Just so we are clear, when someone is born well after a person has died, that person is not able to make "first hand observations"."



Matthew and John: disciples. They were there.

Mark: close to Peter, the disciple; one person removed and possibly there.

Luke: Gentile doctor, talked with eyewitnesses and recorded their observations; one step removed from eyewitnesses.

godless said...

Martin. You agree there are no first hand accounts of Jesus' life. I find your additional comments interesting is all. Of course it is not proof. I did not mean to reject the possible existence of a person named Jesus. He may have even been a preacher.

I meant "Jesus Son of God as described in the Bible". Jesus for shorthand, I figured everyone knew who I meant.

However there is no extra biblical, first hand account to suggest "a man born two thousand years ago turned water into wine and then rose from the dead".

Re: Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. I said outside the gospels. Sheesh.

Then, under your own theory of knowledge, you cannot refute the existence in question?

Gee Stan, maybe you should find out what atheism actually means.

God is One said...

...The author of the Book of Matthew is anonymous. Papias of Hierapolis attributed it to Matthew later. The name "The Gospel according to Mathew" began being added to the text around the end of the second century. There was still debate over which Matthew Papias was referring to.

Martin said...

godless,

I did not mean to reject the possible existence of a person named Jesus

Ah. Well, I don't know anything about that.

But if you want God, I got plenty of evidence for God for you. And once that is in place, then the typical objections to the resurrection of Jesus do not look so strong anymore.

In other words, you have to judge the resurrection of Jesus against the philosophical background of generic monotheism. If that's still out for you, then looking at Jesus as a divine figure is jumping the gun.

Stan said...

godless,
"Gee Stan, maybe you should find out what atheism actually means.

It means rejection of god(s); you have rejected god(s) and you have no good reason for it. If you had evidence you would give it. You have blind belief. Dogmatic irrational Atheist rejectionism.

Yes you said outside the Gospels. That is rejecting the actual witnesses while demanding actual witnesses. Then you didn't comprehend the issue which you brought up. Really godless, this is all getting quite childish on your part.

Hunter said...

"Yes you said outside the Gospels. That is rejecting the actual witnesses"

The Gospels weren't written by witnesses. They were attributed to witnesses many years after they were written. We actually have earlier copies of these texts. We have copies of the writings of the people who decided who to attribute each text to.

And it's strange that someone who demands some much from atheists is some accepting of such flimsy "evidence".

Thesauros said...

Wow! You've got some serious people hanging out here. Do you guys eat raw meat for breakfast or what?

Look, godless, the reality of a Supernatural Creator is a given. Unless you're still a believer in the discredited and utterly refuted Steady State model of the universe, i.e. matter has always existed, then it's a given that a non material Creator of matter exists and It exists necessarily.

From there it's just a natural process to go deeper. Since the bringing into being of a material universe, from literally nothing material before the laws of physics / science were in place is the working definition of a miracle, well that should make you start asking some pretty fundamental questions about the nature of reality. Yes?

Or is Stan right about you only being interested in useless questions / statements that support some weird desire to call yourself an atheist, trendy though it may be?

Stan said...

Hunter,
Interesting. Attribution please.

godless said...

It means rejection of god(s); you have rejected god(s) and you have no good reason for it

Shrug. You wouldn't know a good reason if it bit you in the ass.

And you explicitly stated that you would reject empirical evidence which refuted gods existence. Not that I claimed to possess such.

But what the hell kind of mentality is that? A child's. Stick your fingers in your ears and insist you are right all you like.

But if you want God, I got plenty of evidence for God for you.

Wow. Awesome. Care to share with the rest of the world? Which god are we talking about now? Excuse me if I am a bit skeptical regarding your incredibly extraordinary claim.

In other words, you have to judge the resurrection of Jesus against the philosophical background of generic monotheism

I think you have that backwards Martin...

Yes you said outside the Gospels. That is rejecting the actual witnesses while demanding actual witnesses.

The gospels are the claim Stan, not the evidence.

That's like saying Marvel Comics are evidence for the Avengers. And look! New York is right there! Wow. How much evidence could you want right?

Asymmetrical skepticism indeed.

Thesauros, that is classic god-of-the-gaps thinking.

Rod T. said...

Don't let Bible scholars lead you astray. There is some dissent.
According to Rev Raymond E. Brown “the premier Johannine scholar in the English-speaking world”, it is not impossible that Luke was the author of the Gospel of Luke.
So that is a pre-emptive strike against those who say every major Biblical scholar is united. It's true that the other three Gospels were anonymous. But that doesn't matter. They clearly are proven true and that's all that matters.
Once you accept God is all-powerful then accepting that he can bring a man back to life is a given.

Stan said...

Godless says,
” Shrug. You wouldn't know a good reason if it bit you in the ass.”

A good reason consists of a rational argument or empirical data. You are resorting to insults, which indicates that you have nothing of value to contribute.

”And you explicitly stated that you would reject empirical evidence which refuted gods existence. Not that I claimed to possess such.”

That is false. I would subject it to the standard analysis and accept the results, contra the Atheist approach, which is to accept that which supports the presupposed conclusion and reject that which contradicts the presupposed conclusion.

”But what the hell kind of mentality is that? A child's. Stick your fingers in your ears and insist you are right all you like.”

When you actually present a rational case or empirical evidence, then we will discuss it. You have done neither. You are currently merely wasting time with silly comments.

” The gospels are the claim Stan, not the evidence.”

False. False. False. I have given you the claim at least a dozen times. You have not refuted the claim.

” That's like saying Marvel Comics are evidence for the Avengers. And look! New York is right there! Wow. How much evidence could you want right?

Asymmetrical skepticism indeed.”


Your attempt at an analogy is based on your false assumption that the gospels are the only evidence, the basic evidence, and that refuting the gospels using Skeptical denialism also somehow refutes the existence of a non-physical agent. In fact, refuting the gospels would, if it were possible, have no bearing on the existence of a creating deity. The entire challenge is a Red Herring to pull the focus away from the total inability of Atheists and Atheism to provide a single shred of logic or evidence for their rejection. This inability is what produces the need to make silly comments like this:

” Shrug. You wouldn't know a good reason if it bit you in the ass.”

This is the type of response Atheists must devolve to when they are faced with the failure of their belief system.

Here’s yet another fun fact: you cannot refute the gospels. You can produce no evidence of their actual falseness, which is required of a refutation. You can only try to smear them.

So again, steering the conversation off into the gospels has no bearing on the falseness of Atheism under its own evidentiary theory.

And so, unless you can provide a structured, syllogistic rational argument which validates and proves Atheism, or provide empirical, scientific data which does so, you have no case to make to support your belief system. And that demonstrates that it is a blind belief.

So far you have avoided addressing your reasons for having rejected Theism. So it appears that whatever reason you had, it was not in the form of a rational argument or empirical data.

Martin said...

godless,

Care to share with the rest of the world? Which god are we talking about now?

It's been shared with the rest of the world for 2400 years. But, I'm doing a thread on it on Reddit right now, here.

godless said...

A good reason consists of a rational argument or empirical data

Mm, and when presented with such, you quibble and complain over irrelevancies. Even when the argument is adjusted to include your precise wording you balk at the inevitable conclusion.

Even if Henson actually did have an empirical study showing the non-existence of a non-physical agent, that knowledge would be contingent, and without truth value under the actual definition of science, its capabilities, and its limitations.

Even if an empirical study showed the non-existence of gods, you would reject it...

In fact, refuting the gospels would, if it were possible, have no bearing on the existence of a creating deity.

See? Absolutely NOTHING will change your mind. You insist on atheists presenting arguments you will never accept. It is fundamentally dishonest.

analogy is based on your false assumption that the gospels are the only evidence, the basic evidence

Well fuck yeah. Now we are talking. Where's all this evidence you're talking about?

So far you have avoided addressing your reasons for having rejected Theism.

The belief there exists an intelligent force that cares about and interacts with it's creation has absolutely NO supporting evidence.

The bible is not evidence.
Philosophical musings are not evidence.
Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence.
Untestable hypothesis are not evidence.
The inability of atheists to provide physical evidence for the NON-EXISTENCE of a being is not evidence for the theist. <- That right there is a blatantly demented burden of proof.

IF there is no evidence a god exists,
THEN it is reasonable to act as though a god does not exist.


B. If you believe the "evidence" would have convinced you to convert to Christianity, that means one of two things:
1. You believe you have solid, objective and falsifiable evidence that can be examined through the eyes of a Muslim and still be self-evident. Why then don't more Muslim's convert or consider the Christian religion as a serious alternative to Islam? Where is this evidence and why doesn't it seem to convince people who aren't born into Christianity by accident of birth? What is it that personally convinces you that a god exists? If this were discredited, would you still believe it? If so your belief is not based on reason or evidence.

Stan said...

”Mm, and when presented with such, you quibble and complain over irrelevancies.”

Yes, in your world logic fallacies are definitely irrelevant. You did not refute the fallacies, you merely charge obstruction to your goal of uncritical acceptance.

”Even when the argument is adjusted to include your precise wording you balk at the inevitable conclusion.”

Yes. The argument became a proper argument structurally, and yet it failed to address the actual issue. This annoyed you because you wanted the argument accepted uncritically.

” Well fuck yeah. Now we are talking. Where's all this evidence you're talking about?”

You have been given deductive arguments to refute: you consistently do not do so. You have been pointed to the claims at Lourdes for your refutation: you do not do so.

” The belief there exists an intelligent force that cares about and interacts with it's creation has absolutely NO supporting evidence. “

Nor is that a rational expectation, if the evidence demand is for physical evidence. This reason is rejected.

The bible is not evidence.

It is not claimed as such for basic Theism. So rejecting the Bible is trivial and without force as a reason.

”Philosophical musings are not evidence.”

Too general to be of any importance as a reason.

”Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence.”

Unstated but highly probable Scientism, based on your previously stated adherence to Scientism. Not accepted due to obvious Category Error, unless “substantiation” requirements are specified.

”Untestable hypothesis are not evidence.”

This is a statement of Scientism, and is rejected on that basis.

”The inability of atheists to provide physical evidence for the NON-EXISTENCE of a being is not evidence for the theist. <- That right there is a blatantly demented burden of proof.”

This statement makes no sense: a typo is suspected.

”IF there is no evidence a god exists,
THEN it is reasonable to act as though a god does not exist.


This conclusion is based on the Scientism presented as premises; so it is rejected on the basis that Scientism is demonstrably a logic error as has been shown many times in this conversation.
(continued)

Stan said...

” B. If you believe the "evidence" would have convinced you to convert to Christianity, that means one of two things:
1. You believe you have solid, objective and falsifiable evidence that can be examined through the eyes of a Muslim and still be self-evident. Why then don't more Muslim's convert or consider the Christian religion as a serious alternative to Islam? Where is this evidence and why doesn't it seem to convince people who aren't born into Christianity by accident of birth? What is it that personally convinces you that a god exists? If this were discredited, would you still believe it? If so your belief is not based on reason or evidence.”


1. This entire argument is premised on defeating Christianity (not Theism) based on the need for objective evidence; it is not an argument against Theism and does not even pretend to prove that there is no non-physical agent.

2. Muslims can and do convert, at the risk to their lives. The question is prejudicial in that it falsely implies that conversion is not common.

3. The evidence is that which is rejected by Atheists as being evidence, yet it is adequate to convince many converts; Christianity is growing in Atheist countries like China for example. So the question is falsely stated; people are, in fact, convinced into conversion despite their accident of birth location. Prejudicial question: “when did you stop beating your wife” type of fallacy.

4. ”What is it that personally convinces you that a god exists? If this were discredited, would you still believe it? If so your belief is not based on reason or evidence.”

This is an amazing turnabout of the Atheist lack of proof: Atheists believe without a shred of evidence to support their belief: blind belief. Yet they demand that Theists produce the evidence which is logically impossible and an irrational demand.

Not only is this specifically a logical Category Error, it is also Special Pleading for Atheists not to be burdened with the requirements they try to burden Theists with. That sort of Special Pleading is Hypocrisy.

This is the exact point where Atheists usually will deviate from their supposed logic, and start to make irrational claims in order to avoid admitting to the logical errors and hypocrisy which defines their position. That does not change the fact of the irrationality and rationalization which infests the Atheist argumentation.

Stan said...

A worldview which claims science as the only source of knowledge, yet has a list of “reasons” for a belief system which contains no actual science, is internally contradictory and non-coherent: it is irrational as opposed to rational.

First, it is obvious, one would think, that investigating category [R] for traces of category [!R] constitutes a logical error. Then declaring that category [!R] has no evidence and its existence is rejected on that basis – the logical error – is not rational.

This is precisely what Atheists do:

1. You Theists must provide [R] evidence that shows that [!R] exists.

2. We Atheists have no responsibility to show that [!R] does not exist; it is enough that we merely claim it and then demand [R] evidence for [!R] from Theists.

This irrationality is apparently not obvious to Atheists, who seem to need to believe their fallacies for reasons other than rational deductions of true statements. The refusal of Atheists to accept the fallacies which they produce is further grist for the mill of distrust which Atheists generate about themselves.

Worldviews based on fallacy cannot produce accurate views of the world.

godless said...

Yes, in your world logic fallacies are definitely irrelevant.

Stan. You didn't claim any fallacies. You just said the premise was irrelevant. I kept trying to explain WHY it was relevant but it's like butting heads with a brick wall.

yet it failed to address the actual issue

Nonsense. The issue was why atheism is the most reasonable position and the argument addressed that specifically.

You have been given deductive arguments to refute: you consistently do not do so. You have been pointed to the claims at Lourdes for your refutation: you do not do so.

I have no idea what you are referring to. You keep talking about evidence but you present nothing.

Yet they demand that Theists produce the evidence which is logically impossible and an irrational demand.

Whaaaat? Demanding evidence for something that you claim exists isn't logically impossible or irrational.

Demanding evidence for the non-existence of something IS logically impossible and irrational.

It is logically impossible and irrational to produce evidence to substantiate a theists claim

Objection 1.

You apparently believe there IS evidence to support theism.

IF a person claims it is logically impossible and irrational to produce evidence to substantiate their claim
THEN a person claims to possess evidence to substantiate their claim
WE CONCLUDE the person is either a) a liar, b) insane, c) religious or d)??? you tell me.

1. You Theists must provide [R] evidence that shows that [!R] exists.

2. We Atheists have no responsibility to show that [!R] does not exist; it is enough that we merely claim it and then demand [R] evidence for [!R] from Theists.


Except atheists repeatedly do demonstrate that theistic claims are false. Theists respond by moving the goal posts. Oh seven day creation is a metaphor. Oh hell is a metaphor. Oh angels are just poetic language. Oh the global flood is just a parable. Oh the Jews in Egypt are not REALLY meant to be taken literally. Oh the BIBLE is irrelevant.

Until you are left with a teeny tiny definition of god. "A non-physical agent". What a useless caricature of a god description. What god do you worship? "The non-physical agent". What an ultimate god-of-the-gaps fallacy.

What a fucking joke.

And besides which, yes that is EXACTLY how truth claims work. YOU claim something, YOU support it.

I don't claim I can fucking fly and then insist you prove me wrong.

Go on Stan. Prove I can't fly. Provide physical, empirical evidence I can't fly. Tell me it is irrational and illogical to insist on evidence that I can't fly.

And now tell me with a straight face the burden of proof is on the atheist who reject the theists claim.

Oh let me guess, YOUR claim is different. The standards that apply to my claim don't apply to YOUR claim.

But I'm the hypocrite? Solid logic bud.

Thesauros said...

Whew - you guys have been busy. Anyhow, godless, how is it an example of god-of-the-gaps when it is exactly where the evidence is pointing? In fact, every year the evidence stacks up higher and higher in favour of a Creator that existed outside of and transcendent to space / time / matter. It most certainly does not lean toward a material beginning. That conclusion truly is atheism of the gaps.

Stan said...

godless says,
”Yes, in your world logic fallacies are definitely irrelevant.

Stan. You didn't claim any fallacies. You just said the premise was irrelevant. I kept trying to explain WHY it was relevant but it's like butting heads with a brick wall.”


When a conclusion doesn’t follow from a given premise it is a fundamental Non Sequitur Fallacy.

And it is not possible to show that “some X is false” proves that “all X is false”, or worse that “Y is false”. That is what Henson is trying to make us believe. He is trying to Poison the Well by making the improper induction that some false beliefs prove that all beliefs are false (Guilt By Association).

” yet it failed to address the actual issue

Nonsense. The issue was why atheism is the most reasonable position and the argument addressed that specifically.”


First, addressing an issue with Non Sequiturs is not a reasonable position, much less the most reasonable position.

Second, it does nothing to disprove the basic Theist claim that:

” there exists a non-physical agent capable of creating the universe, who is also capable of interfacing with his creation.”

Third, the criterion here is not “most reasonable”, the criterion is whether the argument passes the tests of disciplined logic. If it does not, it is not rational, much less “reasonable”.

” You have been given deductive arguments to refute: you consistently do not do so. You have been pointed to the claims at Lourdes for your refutation: you do not do so.

I have no idea what you are referring to. You keep talking about evidence but you present nothing.”


The following, presented just above and probably twenty times to you before that, is a deductive argument for you to refute:

”The basic Theist claim is that:” there exists a non-physical agent capable of creating the universe, who is also capable of interfacing with his creation.”

If you do not refute this then you have not refuted Theism. I do not know how to make this any more clear. It has been presented to you time after time after time and you ignore it and claim you don’t know what I’m talking about.

And your claim of lack of evidence, when you don’t even recognize “Lourdes” is an indication of your making universal claims which you cannot support. Look up the “Miracle at Lourdes”, read the full set of claims, and then refute them using scientific investigative knowledge generation. The Lourdes claims are actual Theist claims of metaphysical intervention in the physical world. They have not been refuted, so you might be the first.

But if you cannot, then you cannot make the claim that all Theist claims have been refuted. So refute away. We’ll wait right here.

” Yet they demand that Theists produce the evidence which is logically impossible and an irrational demand.

Whaaaat? Demanding evidence for something that you claim exists isn't logically impossible or irrational.”


Repeating for the twelfth and final time: Demanding physical evidence for a non-physical existence is a Category Error. This must have slipped past you the first dozen times I said it.

”Demanding evidence for the non-existence of something IS logically impossible and irrational.”

Theists do not demand that. Theists demand that you support your rejection with valid reasons for having done so. If you insist that something does not exist, and have no evidence to support that non-existence because the claim is “logically impossible and irrational”, then the logical failure is yours.
(continued)

Stan said...

” It is logically impossible and irrational to produce evidence to substantiate a theists claim

Objection 1.

You apparently believe there IS evidence to support theism.”


I did not make the statement you attribute to me. You made it. What I have said in the past is that you are asserting a Category Error continuously by insisting upon physical evidence for a non-physical existence. Lacking physical evidence in no way refutes the existence of a non-physical existence.

You keep using the word “evidence” without differentiation between physical and non-physical.

However, there do exist claims of physical evidence, and Lourdes is one. If you wish to persist in the claim that there is no physical evidence (despite that claim being meaningless to the refutation of a deity) then you must refute all claims for physical evidence and that includes the Miracle at Lourdes.

I have given you two types of evidence to refute. You have plenty to work with. So far you have just ignored them and claimed no evidence.

” It is logically impossible and irrational to produce evidence to substantiate a theists claim

Objection 1.

You apparently believe there IS evidence to support theism.”


I did not make the statement you attribute to me. You made it. What I have said in the past is that you are asserting a Category Error continuously by insisting upon physical evidence for a non-physical existence. Lacking physical evidence in no way refutes the existence of a non-physical existence.

You keep using the word “evidence” without differentiation between physical and non-physical.

However, there do exist claims of physical evidence, and Lourdes is one. If you wish to persist in the claim that there is no physical evidence (despite that claim being meaningless to the refutation of a deity) then you must refute all claims for physical evidence and that includes the Miracle at Lourdes.

I have given you two types of evidence to refute. You have plenty to work with. So far you have just ignored them and claimed no evidence.

” IF a person claims it is logically impossible and irrational to produce evidence to substantiate their claim

THEN a person claims to possess evidence to substantiate their claim

WE CONCLUDE the person is either a) a liar, b) insane, c) religious or d)??? you tell me.”


No one said that except you. You have refused to differentiate between types of evidence which are actually applicable to different situations and existences.

Stan said...

” Except atheists repeatedly do demonstrate that theistic claims are false. Theists respond by moving the goal posts. Oh seven day creation is a metaphor. Oh hell is a metaphor. Oh angels are just poetic language. Oh the global flood is just a parable. Oh the Jews in Egypt are not REALLY meant to be taken literally. Oh the BIBLE is irrelevant.”

All of the stated claims are ecclesiastic claims, not the claim of basic Thiesm. No one here has argued for any of those things. The argument has been given to you over and over and OVER AND OVER! Continuing to ignore it is just a waste of time and is signaling the approaching end of this conversation.

” Until you are left with a teeny tiny definition of god. "A non-physical agent". What a useless caricature of a god description. What god do you worship? "The non-physical agent". What an ultimate god-of-the-gaps fallacy.”

Finally! You address it by calling it names. It is actually simple enough that a refutation need not be complex. But you cannot refute it, so you call it names.

God of the Gaps is not a logical fallacy; it exists conceptually only as a sub-premise of Scientism, that failed ideology. So God of the Gaps is a failed concept. It cannot be proven that there is no God in the Gap being described, and that is what is necessary for it to be a fallacy. Since the deduction of the existence of such a deity is a valid deduction, grounded in existing axioms and not refutable under Reductio, then the balance of logic goes to the deduction, not to the failed charge of God of the Gaps. The charge of God of the Gaps fails at all levels and is rejected.

” What a fucking joke.

And besides which, yes that is EXACTLY how truth claims work. YOU claim something, YOU support it.”


The claim and its support are made. Can you refute it? Defend your claim that it is a joke. Make a logical syllogistic argument to defend your claim that it is a joke. If you cannot support that claim then retract it.

” I don't claim I can fucking fly and then insist you prove me wrong.

Go on Stan. Prove I can't fly. Provide physical, empirical evidence I can't fly. Tell me it is irrational and illogical to insist on evidence that I can't fly.”


Very poor analogy. You cannot prove you even exist unless you show up at my house. If you do show up at my house, I will prove that you can’t fly. Empirically. Repeatedly as necessary.

” And now tell me with a straight face the burden of proof is on the atheist who reject the theists claim.”

If a claim is rejected without a reason, there is no reason to accept the rejection. Simple as that. If you have no reason, then you can’t claim to have reasonable reasons, can you?

” Oh let me guess, YOUR claim is different. The standards that apply to my claim don't apply to YOUR claim.

But I'm the hypocrite? Solid logic bud.”


If you refuse to accept the Category Error of your physical/non-physical conflation, then you are accepting irrational excuses to keep your unsupported ideology intact.

If that is your position, fine. You admit to it. At least we know what it is.

godless said...

Fine.

” there exists a non-physical agent capable of creating the universe, who is also capable of interfacing with his creation.”

There is your claim.

Support it.

Y'know what?

Forget it.

If you want to believe in some beyond-the-universe airy fairy deity on the basis that someone can't prove it false, I don't give a shit. I think you are an idiot for believing something so emphatically without any evidence. I think you are a hypocrite for accusing people who don't accept your unsubstantiated claim as holding a burden of proof, and rejecting any such burden yourself.

But who cares? You don't defend Yahweh. You don't defend Christianity. You readily toss out all biblical claims. You obviously don't believe in any other specific deity I could name.

So what possible impact is it if you believe in something a half step removed from deism.

Except that's not really what you believe is it? Nah, that's just your smoke screen so you can bash on atheists.

Sorry bub, it's REALLY transparent.

fidar alled said...

Miricle and witnesses and scientific evidence?
There is scientific evidence that the Moon split in half.
The splitting of the moon is confirmed through eye-witness testimony transmitted through an unbroken chain of reliable scholars so many that is it impossible that it could be false.
A skeptic might ask, do we have any independent historical evidence to suggest the moon was ever split? After all, people around the world should have seen this marvelous event and recorded it.
Yes.
We actually have an independent, and quite amazing, historical corroboration of the event from an Indian king of that time.
Kerala is a state of India. The state stretches for 360 miles (580 kilometers) along the Malabar Coast on the southwestern side of the Indian peninsula. King Chakrawati Farmas of Malabar was a Chera king, Cheraman perumal of Kodungallure. He is recorded to have seen the moon split.
The incident is documented in a manuscript kept at the India Office Library, London, reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173.A group of Muslim merchant’s passing by Malabar on their way to China spoke to the king about how God had supported the Arabian prophet with the miracle of splitting of the moon.
The shocked king said he had seen it with his own eyes as well, deputized his son, and left for Arabia to meet the Prophet in person. The Malabari king met the Prophet, bore the two testimonies of faith, learned the basics of faith, but passed away on his way back and was buried in the port city of Zafar, Yemen.
It is said that the contingent was led by a Muslim, Malik bin Dinar, and continued to Kodungallure, the Chera capital, and built the first, and India’s oldest, mosque in the area in 629 CE which exists today.
The Indian sighting and the meeting of the Indian king with Prophet Muhammad is also reported by Muslim sources. The famous Muslim historian, Ibn Kahtir, mentions the splitting of the moon was reported in parts of India.Also, the books of hadith have documented the arrival of the Indian king and his meeting the Prophet.
The materialist atheist is in a sad position indeed!

Godless said...

Forgive my ignorance, but then how is the moon a sphere now?

Martin said...

godless,

Support it.

I referenced you to a new thread I've started on Reddit, doing just that. See it above.

Stan said...

godless says,
”If you want to believe in some beyond-the-universe airy fairy deity on the basis that someone can't prove it false, I don't give a shit. I think you are an idiot for believing something so emphatically without any evidence.”

You have no idea what I believe. What I do here is to analyze what Atheists believe, on the basis of known principles of logic. As you have amply demonstrated, Atheists have a belief system which is supported neither by logic nor by evidence: it is a dogmatic ideology which is adhered to despite its rational failures.

” I think you are a hypocrite for accusing people who don't accept your unsubstantiated claim as holding a burden of proof, and rejecting any such burden yourself.”

What you think of me is of no consequence. What you can demonstrate to be true and valid is what matters.

”But who cares? You don't defend Yahweh. You don't defend Christianity. You readily toss out all biblical claims. You obviously don't believe in any other specific deity I could name.”

So what possible impact is it if you believe in something a half step removed from deism.”


You are right. You have no idea what I believe because that is not the point of this blog, as I point out continually. The point is what Atheists believe and whether they can defend it using their vaunted powers of logic and empirical discrimination: they cannot.

”Except that's not really what you believe is it? Nah, that's just your smoke screen so you can bash on atheists.”

It is true, Atheists will likely feel bashed here, because they actually cannot defend their own belief system with rational reasons. They enter cocky and leave angry and wounded. But they rarely shuck Atheism, at least not for reasons of accepting their logic failures; logic is not the reason that people are Atheist, and illogic is no barrier to remaining Atheist.

”Sorry bub, it's REALLY transparent.”

I’m glad that you see that it works.

Rob said...

Stan, Martin, fidar alled, Storm, Fred and Thesauros:

In an agnostic way, how do I go about analysing claims made by theists?
Take the claim that God split the moon in two (to prove that God was real and Mohammed was His prophet).
There are claims that there were witnesses. There are claims that there is evidence. There are logical reasons that prove God split the moon in two.

I can't talk to the witnesses. All they've left is text. And some of the text is simply claims that there were witnesses. And even if the texts haven't been altered over the years, why should I trust them?
I can't examine the evidence. It happened in the past and the moon is too far away.
The logical proofs look like word games.

I can't prove that it isn't true. What does this mean? This can't mean I should believe it? But I can't force myself to believe it either.

Thesauros said...

”Demanding evidence for the non-existence of something IS logically impossible and irrational.”

Atheists say that you can’t prove a negative (you can't prove that Creator God doesn't exist), but they most certainly believe this negative that can’t be proven.
. They believe this even though they say they won't believe anything that isn't upheld by scientifically validated evidence.
. They believe this even though every single year science comes closer and closer to forcing us into accepting that a Supernatural Creator's existence is not just highly probable, but necessarily true.

@ Stan - "Demanding physical evidence for a non-physical existence is a Category Error”

I think that we do have physical evidence for a non-physical Creator. Beginning with the material universe for which there simply cannot be a material explanation for its existence. Yes? No? This is not God-of-the-gaps because the evidence shows that nothing material caused the singularity since nothing material existed.

. Either matter is eternal (and atheists dearly wish that it could have been - yet the material infinite does not and cannot exist) OR
. The creator of matter is eternal

It's one or the other and it's not the former

Now, you guys far surpass me in intelligence so if I'm way off the mark then I'm sorry for butting into your thread.

reflux said...

Stan, let's revisit what you would accept as material evidence and the standard of proof that you expect from anyone according to your standards. These are your own words, I'm sure you are familiar with them:

I had thought it obvious that it is not materially viable, but I will go the distance. I will accept evidence that has done the following within the constraints of empirical, experimental, replicable, falsifiable scientific methodology:

a) Explore every cubic inch, every cubic angstrom of space, during every femtosecond of time – historically, current, and future, for a deity which is not material in any sense, with instrumentation data on the lack of discovery
at every point onthe universe;

AND,

b) Explore everything before the Big Bang using the best material technology to provide instrumental data that there is no such no-material existence.

I will not accept mathematical, preponderance of evidence, reasonable doubt, etc. I have given the reason why.


In stating categorically and unreservedly that you could prove that Godless cannot fly, why do you insist that it can only be done at your house - a point in space and time claim? Surely, unless you also "Explore every cubic inch, every cubic angstrom of space, during every femtosecond of time – historically, current, and future" ... "at every point onthe universe" you are requiring an admitted impossible standard of others and insisting on a standard of proof for your own purposes that you've already dismissed as being insufficient and illogical?

So, do tell, how exactly would you prove godless cannot fly to the same standard that you would expect of others without being exposed as a liar or a hypocrite? Please, an answer, not a dodge or some form of special pleading regarding focus or asymmetry.

yonose said...

godless,

"Can you quote for me where he defines theism?

Because the closest thing I can see is a theist is someone who "deduces" god.

Theism is, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists."


Stan repeated more than one the defintion for you, I told you it was akin to panentheism, just browse above.

The second sentence is still incomplete. Deducing God is not the same as defining aspects of the nature of that entity. Just a hint, it does not explicitly mean that it is to be described in personalistic, psycho-social terms only.

Third, that's the typical simplictic definition (Merriam-webster, wikipedia), but is not the broadest possible defition. You know, I never trust Wikipedia much, because Wikipedia's concept of Theism is conflated with the concept of Wikipedia's Classical Theism at some point, to give it the tone which is found to be defined within Christian Exclusivism.

Wikipedia's Theism is more about Theistic Personalism which is related to Monotheism, but then explains the other possible categories as if they were subsets of the definition above, something that can be proved false.

Wikipedia sucks :P, at least Wikpedia's bogged down definition of Classical Theism seems to be a bit accurate.

If it's Theistic Personalism what you criticize, present your argument, that is NOT the whole set of theism.

"But the premise DOESN'T define theism. It defines A Theist as someone who believes in a god... which is what you all are!!"

Nice curve ball. I don't think it is what you said earlier in the game. Also, the premise does not define a Theist only as someone who believes, but also, again, defining the nature of the divine as a metaphysicial view of reality is not necessarily knowing what are the concerns of a God which is ONLY personalistic in nature. That were the argument utterly fails.

"In a sense of course. Because very quickly it is agreed that we are only debating two concepts, your theism, and my rejection of it. We both agree that the millions of other interpretations of theism range from misguided to nonsensical."

It is not my theism, look it up. Don't conflate a definition from an interpretation. Also make a case. Which interpretations are not to be taken into account??

(continuing below)

yonose said...

(continuing from above)

"Right, this is why I feel like you are not reading it. The initial premise is that the definition of what the theist believes, is defined/deduces/communicated via the theist. The Outsider Test is to see if you really have good reasons to believe such.

I'm not hearing any good reasons. Or any reasons.

B. If you believe the "evidence" would have convinced you to convert to Christianity, that means one of two things:
1. You believe you have solid, objective and falsifiable evidence that can be examined through the eyes of a Muslim and still be self-evident. Why then don't more Muslim's convert or consider the Christian religion as a serious alternative to Islam? Where is this evidence and why doesn't it seem to convince people who aren't born into Christianity by accident of birth? What is it that personally convinces you that a god exists? If this were discredited, would you still believe it? If so your belief is not based on reason or evidence."


It is incomplete for a good reason: premise is not a definition which gets the whole set of Theism, as you now admit. B) borders to Scientism. The question of the knowledge of the divinity is not a question to be constrained by Popper's demarcation argument, and the other parameters which are used with the scientific method.

That there's a logical mutual -exclusion between religious exclusivism and patheism, that does not mean the practice has the same boundary conditions. I think your condescendence is due to the lack of understanding of some theoretical arguments. I blame more wikipedia for those flaky definitions. Read a good book regarding the difference between Classical Theism and Theistic Personalism, then you may get a clue.

Kind Regards.

Stan said...

Rob says,
”In an agnostic way, how do I go about analysing claims made by theists?”

Wonderful question, thanks!

When Theists make falsifiable claims of physical phenomena, then science, as in forensic science usually, certainly is appropriate if it is done without excluding any answers in advance, or selecting a “correct” answer to be chosen first and looking for support for that answer only. Forensic science generally does not produce experimentally replicable results and the falsifiability is sometimes not available or low. So the truth value is determined by comparison with known events or conditions, and the likelihood or probability is assessed, making the outcome an opinion. (This is true of all historical forensics, including forensic sciences: hence” expert opinion”).

When Theists make claims of a metaphysical phenomenon, then it must be determined whether the phenomenon is falsifiable or not; if it is not falsifiable, then it is truly metaphysical, and science cannot address it. So it becomes a logical problem which can be addressed as an argument, and subjected to the rules of logical analysis. If it is rational, passing logical muster, it becomes necessary to assess the probability that it has argued something which has a high likelihood, or is unlikely, and at that point it becomes opinion.

Because even empirical, replicable, falsifiable science suffers from the problem of Induction, even those sciences are opinion.

The necessity of developing an opinion which is highly likely to be valid, based on the most sound support possible is the issue.

An example is creationism. Merely because science differs with creationism is not enough to falsify creationism; science is contingent and can change drastically in a short time. However, examination of the structure of the earth lends credence to science much more than to creationism, in my opinion. For example the subsurface structures revealed in the Grand Canyon do not fit well with creationism unless one assumes a deity which is determined to deceive humans. Deception is not a strong argument. The best case for creationism seems to be agnostic…again, in my opinion. In the worst case, creationism loses to observable empirical findings.

Other examples go the other direction, subjects such as abiogenesis, cognitive analytical abilities from deterministic positions of electrons, agency, whether life has an essence, etc.

Stan said...

Reflux says,

”In stating categorically and unreservedly that you could prove that Godless cannot fly, why do you insist that it can only be done at your house - a point in space and time claim? Surely, unless you also "Explore every cubic inch, every cubic angstrom of space, during every femtosecond of time – historically, current, and future" ... "at every point on the universe" you are requiring an admitted impossible standard of others and insisting on a standard of proof for your own purposes that you've already dismissed as being insufficient and illogical?”

You are right. I cannot prove that godless cannot fly at some remote point in time and space without actually examining all points in time and space. And godless cannot prove that god does not exist in some point in time or space without examining all points in time and space. I rushed the issue and was being flip. I admit to my failure for deviating from serious conversation.

Here is the actual answer: The Atheist claim that god(s) do not exist physically in our universe (note 1) is not empirically provable. Godless is attempting to weight that issue with an analog using a trivial issue. His position really is that his analogic demonstration shows that it is not important to prove something which is obvious. This presupposes that the non-existence of a deity is obvious, as obvious as the fact that he cannot fly. But this reduces his argument to a tautology: there is no deity because (it is obvious that) there is no deity (so no investigation is necessary). He is defining away the subject of the argument by turning it into an unjustified axiom.

So he has reduced the argument thus: there is no need to examine all points in time and space for the existence of a deity, because “it is obvious that” there is no deity.

My position is this: turning the consequent of an argument into an axiom is false, unless the axiom is justified; but the axiom cannot be justified without actually examining all points in time and space. So the conclusion which he draws from the analogy he uses is false because the argument is internally contradictory false.

The further issue is that there is no Theist expectation that a deity would be found by examining all points in time and space. The Atheist claim that not finding one physically indicates that none exists is not a refutation of the existence of a non-physical agent. So the Atheist claim fails twice, once due to non-coherence, and again due to inapplicability (Category Error).

Note 1: This issue is commonly raised as a Scientism-driven issue; the daughter of a man I know declared her Atheism because in her astronomy class she had “investigated space, and there was no god out there”. godless has declared god of the gaps, which is not a logic fallacy, it is an ideological declaration under Scientism.

godless said...

You are right. I cannot prove that godless cannot fly at some remote point in time and space without actually examining all points in time and space. And godless cannot prove that god does not exist in some point in time or space without examining all points in time and space.

Riight. I've stated as much. Several times. Your rejection of my ability to fly is right on par with my rejection of your claim that a personal god exists.

There are no reasons to accept the claim. There is no evidence to support the claim. The claim is rife with magical thinking. The claim is impossible to disprove with 100% certainty.

Is your belief system that I cannot fly now a proper irrational belief? Does that belief tell us anything else about you?

His position really is that his analogic demonstration shows that it is not important to prove something which is obvious.

Noo. My point was that it is impossible to prove a negative. Shifting the burden of proof to insist on a universal examination in order to reasonably reject a claim is completely unreasonable. It is in fact impossible.

So demanding such is irrational.

This issue is commonly raised as a Scientism-driven issue; the daughter of a man I know declared her Atheism because in her astronomy class she had “investigated space, and there was no god out there”.

Where is god? Let's look there.

godless said...

Yonose,

If it's Theistic Personalism what you criticize, present your argument, that is NOT the whole set of theism.

Yeah I get it. That's not your god. Sorry bud there is a different god for every theist and it is impossible to catch them all in a single argument. I just threw the biggest net possible. I thought the argument was as inclusive as possible because the opening premise states that the "theist defines god". And I interpret this as, "we obtain our definition of god via a theist." You are reinforcing my point by clarifying what it is you mean by god...

Nice curve ball. I don't think it is what you said earlier in the game.

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I'm quite sure this is what I've repeated several times.

In regards to B. No it does not border on scientism. Either you have solid, objective and falsifiable evidence for god, or you do not.

If you do not, why are you a theist??

Stan said...

”Riight. I've stated as much. Several times. Your rejection of my ability to fly is right on par with my rejection of your claim that a personal god exists.”

That claim is false:
(a) your claimed ability to fly is a trivial (physical) comparison to the claims of Atheism against non-physical existence; that is what I said and you ignore.

(b) Atheism makes a positive claim of rejection, but whines about having to prove that which it claims.

(c) You know you cannot fly. You have no clue as to the existence of a non-physical agent. There is no comparison.

The need to prove a non-existence is brought about solely by the Atheist claim to know such things, as is evidenced by their rejection (which they refuse to defend).

This entire subject merely serves to prove that you cannot, in fact, prove the Atheist claims, so you attack the need to prove the Atheist claims as a subterfuge. When claims are made without any ability to prove them under your own evidentiary theory, they are metaphysical claims, not scientific claims; they are not knowledge and they do not rise even to the level of hypotheses under Materialist standards. Atheist claims are made outside the evidentiary theory of Atheo-Materialism, and for that reason alone they are non-coherent. And that is in addition to the Category Error of the claim itself.

Either acknowledge the logic errors, or refute them.

”There are no reasons to accept the claim.’

Many reasons have been given which you have not and cannot refute. This claim is false. You seem to think that we have no memories here.

”There is no evidence to support the claim.”

For the two dozenth time: This is a Category Error, indicating that you don’t care about logic by your refusal to acknowledge logical errors.

”The claim is rife with magical thinking.”

False. The Theist claim is a rational deduction which is axiomatically grounded and passes rational testing; Atheism does not. Magical thinking occurs when claims of certainty are made which have no possibility of being proved under the evidentiary theory of the claimant: Atheism qualifies as magical thinking because it provides no logical or empirical proof of its claims; it merely whines about having to do so. That epitomizes magical thinking.
(continued)

Stan said...

”The claim is impossible to disprove with 100% certainty.”

Yes. So is your ability to fly. It is the type of claim and the probabilities which differ.

”Is your belief system that I cannot fly now a proper irrational belief?”

Inductively and probabilistically assessed, your ability to fly has a probability too close to zero to be held as a rational belief; the contrary, that you cannot fly, has a probability so close to one that not to hold that belief would be irrational. In fact, because your claim appeared merely as a Straw Man indicates that the probability actually is zero. So: no.

The probability that god doesn’t exist in the universe, proving that god doesn’t exist at all is actually zero. To hold that belief is completely irrational. The specific logic errors have been enumerated many, many times.

” Does that belief tell us anything else about you?”

Since you misapprehended the belief I hold and the reasons and probabilities involved, then you no doubt have also misapprehended any conclusions you have drawn from that.

” His position really is that his analogic demonstration shows that it is not important to prove something which is obvious.

Noo. My point was that it is impossible to prove a negative. Shifting the burden of proof to insist on a universal examination in order to reasonably reject a claim is completely unreasonable. It is in fact impossible.

So demanding such is irrational.”


Your tactic was to compare a trivial physical claim to a non-trivial non-physical claim for the purpose of denying the need to defend Atheist claims. Denying that is just one more illogical point your position.

It is the claim itself which is irrational, for reasons which have been explained to you ad nauseum; further:

(a) expecting you to defend your claim is rational;

(b) expecting you to do it within the boundaries of your belief system is rational;

(c) expecting you to do it to the full boundaries which are applicable to the claim is rational.

Claiming that you must not be held responsible for defending your claim is irrational.

Your entire thrust is to defend your ability to make claims which you cannot be held to defend. If there is any magical thinking, there it is: Making claims which cannot be defended.

” Where is god? Let's look there.”

Category Error redux. The logical failure of Materialism and Scientism is absolutely lost on you. You do not even acknowledge the obvious Category Error which you make constantly. Disciplined logic merely gets in the way of your unprovable and irrational ideology, so you don’t acknowledge any logic failures at all.

Stan said...

Godless,
Two question:
Which do you value more, Atheism or logic? What are your reasons?

If one contradicts the other, which do you choose and why?

godless said...

(a) your claimed ability to fly is a trivial (physical) comparison to the claims of Atheism against non-physical existence; that is what I said and you ignore.

The subjective value you place on the claim has zero relevance.

(b) Atheism makes a positive claim of rejection, but whines about having to prove that which it claims.

Atheism is explicitly a rejection of a belief. That is not a claim of positive existence. Throwing in the word "positive" doesn't change the meaning of your statement.

(c) You know you cannot fly. You have no clue as to the existence of a non-physical agent. There is no comparison.

Do I? Do I have evidence of this? Evidence spanning every femtosecond of space and time? I do not. How inconsistent are your standards.

You know there is no god. You have no clue if I can fly or not. See how easy that is?

This entire subject merely serves to prove that you cannot

I cannot falsify the unfalsifiable? No shit Sherlock. I've repeatedly stated I cannot. I've repeatedly stated that the inability to prove the impossible is not a point in your favour.

” Where is god? Let's look there.”

Category Error redux.


A god that is beyond investigation is irrelevant. Your claim is thus irrelevant and by your own standards may be dismissed as such.

Furthermore, I do not accept your charge of a Category Error.

Most theists believe god interferes with this world. A non-interfering god is a useful as no god. An interfering god refutes any charge of a category error. If god interferes, there cannot be a category error. If god does not interfere, then theism is false.

"Category Error" is a weaselly escape from any responsibility to substantiate your position.

Which do you value more, Atheism or logic? What are your reasons?

Atheism is the rejection of a claim. It has no value whatsoever outside the context of a specific theism.

See the failure of communication here is that you repeatedly insist I disprove the possibility of a god. I never claimed such. My position, repeatedly stated, is that atheism is the most reasonable theological position to hold.

I expect to contrast atheism to real world religions. Not the claim of an immaterial deity consisting of no tangible relevancy.

However, your claim of an immaterial agent is practically the definition of irrelevant and trivial. There's no meat to chew on, so why would you swallow that?

Stan said...

”The subjective value you place on the claim has zero relevance.”

Of course the claim was not subjective, it was substantiated with reasons which you have not refuted or even addressed.

”b) Atheism makes a positive claim of rejection, but whines about having to prove that which it claims.

Atheism is explicitly a rejection of a belief. That is not a claim of positive existence. Throwing in the word "positive" doesn't change the meaning of your statement.”


The word “positive” emphasizes that there is a definite, explicit claim being made. Don’t like that particular word? If it doesn’t change anything, why the complaint?

”(c) You know you cannot fly. You have no clue as to the existence of a non-physical agent. There is no comparison.

Do I? Do I have evidence of this? Evidence spanning every femtosecond of space and time? I do not. How inconsistent are your standards.

You know there is no god. You have no clue if I can fly or not. See how easy that is?”


You have dived off the deep end into an empty pool. There is no justification possible for your argument. It is merely a cheesy Tu Quoque without even the logic of the average Tu Quoque.

”This entire subject merely serves to prove that you cannot

I cannot falsify the unfalsifiable? No shit Sherlock. I've repeatedly stated I cannot. I've repeatedly stated that the inability to prove the impossible is not a point in your favour.”


You truncated the sentence I wrote, apparently to avoid reproducing the actual argument and meaning, which makes the case you cannot refute. Since you do not acknowledge the actual arguments which I made, there is no point in continuing to respond to this childishness. When you make a claim that requires an impossible justification, it is the claim that is at fault, not the justification. This has been explained and you ignore the explanation, except for this:
(continued)

Stan said...

”Category Error redux.

A god that is beyond investigation is irrelevant. Your claim is thus irrelevant and by your own standards may be dismissed as such.

Furthermore, I do not accept your charge of a Category Error.

Most theists believe god interferes with this world. A non-interfering god is a useful as no god. An interfering god refutes any charge of a category error. If god interferes, there cannot be a category error. If god does not interfere, then theism is false.”

"Category Error" is a weaselly escape from any responsibility to substantiate your position.”


Two more points which you continually ignore:

(a) It is not essential for an inventor who can interface with his invention to actually ever to do so, or to do so often, or to do so on command of the invention. Your statement, ”If god does not interfere, then theism is false.” is false.

(b) You have been given one example of such intervention, which you have been invited to refute and you have not done so: the Miracle at Lourdes.

(c) ” A god that is beyond investigation is irrelevant.” The claim that god must be found physically, by physical investigation is false: Category Error.

(d) The presupposition that science can prove that there is no other source of knowledge, or that there is no existence which is not physical, or that there is no god physically in the universe at any point in space or time, or that there is no non-physical agent, is false. So using science or Philosophical Materialism as the basis for claims regarding these things is without meaning.

” Atheism is the rejection of a claim. It has no value whatsoever outside the context of a specific theism.”

You were given a specific claim for basic Theism which you did not refute, you ridiculed rather than offer a rational counter argument. At one point you admitted that you could not produce a refutation; then you went back to ridicule.

The argument exists; your refutation does not.

” See the failure of communication here is that you repeatedly insist I disprove the possibility of a god. I never claimed such. My position, repeatedly stated, is that atheism is the most reasonable theological position to hold.

I expect to contrast atheism to real world religions. Not the claim of an immaterial deity consisting of no tangible relevancy.”


Then you wish not to have to deal with the actual basis for Deism and Theism; you want to deal only with ecclesiasticism and to avoid the actual being which is referenced. So you are in the wrong place to make arguments that do not relate to the actual being involved, the being that you want to deny by proxy rather than to address directly. If you cannot address it directly, then you cannot claim to have refuted it.

” However, your claim of an immaterial agent is practically the definition of irrelevant and trivial. There's no meat to chew on, so why would you swallow that?”

If it is so simple, why not just refute it? Obviously you cannot. So you merely denigrate it. Your inability to refute even the most simplistic description of the essence of a Theistic deity means that your Atheism is a belief system without justification of any type: blind belief which is demonstrably irrational.

DR C said...

This is what annoys me, people act like atheists are making as equally unfounded claims as theists. If there is no evidence for something then the default stance is "I don't believe this to be true until some evidence comes to light that it is or might be". You don't have to declare yourself as undecided on everything that ever was(n't).
I do not have to say that I am unsure about the existence of a purple demon who lives in my closet simply because there is no evidence against him because the mere fact that there is absolutely nothing that would support the idea of him existing leads me to make the conclusion that he doesn't until something would lead me to change that conclusion.
This is the same with religion, people say "im agnostic because who knows he might be!" as if humanity somehow had to disprove the idea of a metaphysical being with physical evidence to invalidate it. Currently there is no need for god to exist to explain things, there is also no evidence that he does or ever did exist so if you take the stance of agnosticism you're doing it on the grounds of social pressure and not on reason or else you'd have to come out as an agnostic on any unprovable/disprovable idea ever invented. If I made something up right here on the spot there would be the same amount of evidence in its favor and against it as god has yet you would scoff at me.

fidar alled said...

"You have been given one example of such intervention, which you have been invited to refute and you have not done so: the Miracle at Lourdes."

Two. Don't forget Mohammed spiting the moon in two. Many witnesses and still unrefuted.

Chris said...

Atheism is strange to me. It's puzzling that one should rely on methodological naturalism to determine if metaphysical naturalism is true. Odd that.

It's like a pack of dogs implementing the sniff test to determine if there is such a thing as mathematics.

godless said...

The word “positive” emphasizes that there is a definite, explicit claim being made

Yes.. The "claim" is that this person does not believe in gods. In fact this person may think the very notion of gods to be a primitive delusion brought on by humanities tendency to anthropomorphize nature and see agency where none exists.. The reasons for this may be many and varied. It is not a claim of proof. Yes, atheism is a statement of belief. I believe there are no gods.

When I attempt to explain the reasoning why it is completely rational to reject god claims, you protest with completely irrelevant charges of fallacy.

Each erroneous charge can essentially be summarized as "that is not my god". This is why you insist on the most generic description possible. The more vague it is, the more room for your protests.

This brings to light three clear conclusions.

1) You readily dismiss, without reason or evidence, different "deductions" of theism. In fact you named them irrelevant, as your overarching deity is superior. The very charge you now criticize me for hijacking.
2) You refuse to defend your own interpretation of theism. You are obviously a Christian, but realize that Christianity is objectively indefensible. But a "non-physical agent", well, you'll never find ANY evidence that doesn't exist.
3) Interpretations of theism are unique to each person. There have been at least a half a dozen theist commentators, each with a distinct interpretation of a theism. This strongly points to theism being a subjective interpretation, rather than an objective fact of reality. No! It's not a PROOF. But holy shit what a coincidence right?

Millions of interpretations of theism exist. They cannot all be right. They can certainly all be wrong. That is my position. I BELIEVE they are all wrong. I believe this for the same reasons you believe they are all (-1) wrong. They all seem irrelevant. None of their claims seems congruent with reality. It sounds like proper nonsense. Before you take offense, remember how you consider that VAST majority of competing theistic claims.

Your statement, ”If god does not interfere, then theism is false.” is false.

It's shit like this that illuminates how little interest you have in reason.

the·ism
noun /ˈTHÄ“ËŒizÉ™m/ 

Belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures


You just pick and choose what definitions you accept.

Intervention is central to the concept of theism.

If intervention occurs, there cannot possibly be a category error.

If intervention does not occur, theism is false.

Your game is rigged, which strongly points to a dogmatic, irrational mentality. This is further confirmed by your absolutely ridiculous standards of proof for atheistic claims AND your admission you would reject empirical evidence refuting your position.

I love talking about this stuff, HOWEVER, your obvious insistence on refusing any sort of honest conversation has exhausted me.

Can I ask you one question though? Do you believe Allah clove the moon in half? Why or why not? Or is it ... irrelevant? Try and be straightforward if possible.

godless said...

The word “positive” emphasizes that there is a definite, explicit claim being made

Yes.. The "claim" is that this person does not believe in gods. In fact this person may think the very notion of gods to be a primitive delusion brought on by humanities tendency to anthropomorphize nature and see agency where none exists.. The reasons for this may be many and varied. It is not a claim of proof. Yes, atheism is a statement of belief. I believe there are no gods.

When I attempt to explain the reasoning why it is completely rational to reject god claims, you protest with completely irrelevant charges of fallacy.

Each erroneous charge can essentially be summarized as "that is not my god". This is why you insist on the most generic description possible. The more vague it is, the more room for your protests.

This brings to light three clear conclusions.

1) You readily dismiss, without reason or evidence, different "deductions" of theism. In fact you named them irrelevant, as your overarching deity is superior. The very charge you now criticize me for hijacking.
2) You refuse to defend your own interpretation of theism. You are obviously a Christian, but realize that Christianity is objectively indefensible. But a "non-physical agent", well, you'll never find ANY evidence that doesn't exist.
3) Interpretations of theism are unique to each person. There have been at least a half a dozen theist commentators, each with a distinct interpretation of a theism. This strongly points to theism being a subjective interpretation, rather than an objective fact of reality. No! It's not a PROOF. But holy shit what a coincidence right?

Millions of interpretations of theism exist. They cannot all be right. They can certainly all be wrong. That is my position. I BELIEVE they are all wrong. I believe this for the same reasons you believe they are all (-1) wrong. They all seem irrelevant. None of their claims seems congruent with reality. It sounds like proper nonsense. Before you take offense, remember how you consider that VAST majority of competing theistic claims.

Your statement, ”If god does not interfere, then theism is false.” is false.

It's shit like this that illuminates how little interest you have in reason.

the·ism
noun /ˈTHÄ“ËŒizÉ™m/ 

Belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures


You just pick and choose what definitions you accept.

Intervention is central to the concept of theism.

If intervention occurs, there cannot possibly be a category error.

If intervention does not occur, theism is false.

Your game is rigged, which strongly points to a dogmatic, irrational mentality. This is further confirmed by your absolutely ridiculous standards of proof for atheistic claims AND your admission you would reject empirical evidence refuting your position.

I love talking about this stuff, HOWEVER, your obvious insistence on refusing any sort of honest conversation has exhausted me.

Can I ask you one question though? Do you believe Allah clove the moon in half? Why or why not? Or is it ... irrelevant? Try and be straightforward if possible.

yonose said...

godless,

"
Yeah I get it. That's not your god. Sorry bud there is a different god for every theist and it is impossible to catch them all in a single argument. I just threw the biggest net possible. I thought the argument was as inclusive as possible because the opening premise states that the "theist defines god". And I interpret this as, "we obtain our definition of god via a theist." You are reinforcing my point by clarifying what it is you mean by god... "


I'll do you some questions:

As you now inconsistently mention that, once again that every theist has a single different god, once again,

Present those possible different definitions. Would you actually care to mention what are the definitions are you against?

Would you care to investigate them with some rigidity so you could corroborate you hypothesis?

How am I sure you are not making them up, as Henson did?

Would you honestly mention at what context those definitions acually work?

It is still unclear to me, what's all about all branches of Theism, that you uncritically reject.

(continuing below)

yonose said...

(from above)


I'll use here some counter arguments to your hypothesis:

First, Stating a tautological argument like that, does not, implicitly nor explicitly, lead to the conclusion that every single person has a single different view of a non-material entity.

The definition made by Daniel Henson is a whole mixture of things, were he barely defines a view regarding Theistic Personalism or maybe some aspects of theosophy which are not clear, and which he directly ascribes to the Judeo-Cristian set of religions. Simply put, as you now admit it is not a definition but rather an interpretation, as such, it is not clear, or with the necessary completeness, to follow the subsequent arguments, they are non-sequitur (do not follow). If he is against all possible manifestations of theism, why would he bother to give such a definition of it? why did he not instead work through all the arguments branch by branch?

Second, You don't at least give some evidence, about how every single person has a single different definition of what a non-material, ultimate entity, and you keep conflating definitions with interpretations and stating such as the former, regarding this matter.

Third, The concept of Classical Theism and Buddhist Zen are practically equivalent. There are people who suscribe to judeo-cristrian religions and also suscribe to the view of Classical Theism, and also there are people who suscribe to the buddhist concept of Zen. Here lies one of the main reasons I reject you argument.

I just wonder why do you make such anti-rationalist approach, from a theoretical standpoint. It sustains my suspicions about yourself not wanting to know exactly what are you rejecting, but you blindly reject something, nonetheless.

"
In regards to B. No it does not border on scientism. Either you have solid, objective and falsifiable evidence for god, or you do not.

If you do not, why are you a theist??"


You're right. It does not border on Scientism, it is full of Scientism.

I'm gonna tell you something, I also asked some evidence for God, in that exact way you did ask it here with me.

That's not how it works. the divine is not a vending machine, or how people call it where I live "El Dios de los Bomberos". Anyway, I'm not here for religious evangelism or anything of the sort, that's not my interest, and hasn't been.

I'm a Theist, because I took the time to understand the basics, from theoretical and practical perspectives, what are their basic differences and caveats.

Also, the claim you're doing here is as outrageously huge as any other scientitic claim, and I recognize I did it before.

Would you bother to expose, how to falsify from a scientific perspective, one homogenous simple, timeless, spaceless and inmanent agent?

Would you bother also to expose, how to falsify from a scientific perspective, the refutations of some of the aspects mentioned in the question above?

How do you do so??

Don't you realize, that from such perspective, it also renders Atheism unfalsifiable?

The nature of such claim is not cohesive.

Kind Regards.

godless said...

As you now inconsistently mention that, once again that every theist has a single different god, once again,

Present those possible different definitions. Would you actually care to mention what are the definitions are you against?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Note there no where is listed "non-physical agent" nor "generic theism".

How many of these claims do YOU accept?

Anyways, most of the points you brought I up I specifically addressed in my previous posts.

I think you are misunderstanding the argument. Or we are speaking very similar but different languages. You at least seem to be honest..

For example:

Would you bother to expose, how to falsify from a scientific perspective, one homogenous simple, timeless, spaceless and inmanent agent?

I've explicitly addressed this question multiple times. You posing the question betrays a fundamental ignorance of my position.

Thesauros said...

"Currently there is no need for god to exist to explain things,"

I don't know if it's possible to think of a statement as utterly and completely false as is this one.

Stan said...

”The word “positive” emphasizes that there is a definite, explicit claim being made

Yes.. The "claim" is that this person does not believe in gods. In fact this person may think the very notion of gods to be a primitive the very notion of gods to be a primitive delusion and see agency where none exists.. The reasons for this may be many and varied. It is not a claim of proof. Yes, atheism is a statement of belief. I believe there are no gods.”


So now Atheism is a belief without proof.

Our major point here is then validated: Atheism is a belief system which has no proof for its beliefs, and is therefore a blind belief: a religious adherence to an ideology which has no evidence or proof in its support.

Good. So we are done, then.

Now let’s discuss the “reasons” being given for the belief system which has no evidence or proof:

(a) ” the very notion of gods to be a primitive delusion…” Yes, this is a belief without either evidence or rational support, being held as an irrational belief.

(b) ” …brought on by humanities tendency to anthropomorphize nature…” Yes, another unsupportable belief in a generalized motivation for an unprovable assertion, (a) above.

(c) ”… see agency where none exists.” Another claim of non-existence which will not be substantiated by any Atheist using evidence or logic, ever.

(d) ”… The reasons for this may be many and varied. It is not a claim of proof.” Then you may not claim it as having any truth value.

(e) ” Yes, atheism is a statement of belief. I believe there are no gods.” Whether you like it or not, Atheism is an explicit rejection of Theist claims with no substantiation, either logical or empirical. And this claim is an avoidance of having to accept that fact. However, it can be pointed out that your belief system is blind belief, a religious ideology, believed without evidence or logical support – a fact which you can only deny without any evidence to support your denial.

” When I attempt to explain the reasoning why it is completely rational to reject god claims, you protest with completely irrelevant charges of fallacy.”

For the unsupported Atheist ideology, logical fallacies are completely irrelevant because under the Atheist unsupported belief system there is no perceived need to support the Atheist belief, including support which would actually refute those fallacies. The Category Error stands. The Special Pleading for Atheists not to support their rejections stands. The False Analogy Fallacy stands. The Red Herrings Stand.
(continued)

Stan said...

” Each erroneous charge can essentially be summarized as "that is not my god". This is why you insist on the most generic description possible. The more vague it is, the more room for your protests.”

This is an excuse for not being able to refute the most basic properties of Theist assertion. It is now over; you admit to a blind belief. It is done.

” This brings to light three clear conclusions.

1) You readily dismiss, without reason or evidence, different "deductions" of theism. In fact you named them irrelevant, as your overarching deity is superior. The very charge you now criticize me for hijacking.”


Hijacking? That is a bizarre charge. I charge you with the inability to refute the most basic, essential and necessary elements of Theism. That charge remains in place.

” 2) You refuse to defend your own interpretation of theism. You are obviously a Christian, but realize that Christianity is objectively indefensible. But a "non-physical agent", well, you'll never find ANY evidence that doesn't exist.”

I have given you the basic elements which are necessary and sufficient for Theism. You make counter charges rather than refute them. And you continually refuse to accept evidence which is presented for your refutation, both physical and logical. These are the poor excuses you use for not defending your ideology, which you now admit is merely an unsubtantiable belief system. Since you admit that, it is a mystery as to why you try to justify that position with excuses.
(continued)

Stan said...

” 3) Interpretations of theism are unique to each person. There have been at least a half a dozen theist commentators, each with a distinct interpretation of a theism. This strongly points to theism being a subjective interpretation, rather than an objective fact of reality. No! It's not a PROOF. But holy shit what a coincidence right?”

Show me a Theist who denies the essential, necessary and sufficient characteristics of Theism which you refuse to refute. You continually conflate ecclesiastical positions with basic Theism – another blatant Category Error.

So if you continue to refuse to refute the basic elements which are common to, necessary and sufficient for the basic belief of Theism held by Theists, then this conversation is done. Your continued scrambling for ever more reasons not to address the fundamental principles is a waste of time.

” Millions of interpretations of theism exist. They cannot all be right. They can certainly all be wrong. That is my position. I BELIEVE they are all wrong. I believe this for the same reasons you believe they are all (-1) wrong. They all seem irrelevant. None of their claims seems congruent with reality. It sounds like proper nonsense. Before you take offense, remember how you consider that VAST majority of competing theistic claims.”

This is so basically false, and has been shown false so many times that this is the last time it will be addressed with you: Theism and ecclesiasticism are two separate things. You have been given the fundamental, necessary and sufficient characteristics of Theism dozens of times. Your response has been to ignore it, then to ridicule it, then to deny that it has any value, all in the attempt to avoid actually addressing it head-on. These tactics are no longer acceptable, especially in light of your admission that Atheism is a belief system without proof of any type: blind belief.

”You just pick and choose what definitions you accept.

Intervention is central to the concept of theism.

If intervention occurs, there cannot possibly be a category error.


(a) This is as false as it gets: the Atheist demand is for empirical, scientific, experimental, replicable, falsifiable, peer reviewed, data on physical existence of a deity. That specifically requires the deity either (1) to make itself available upon the demand of the Atheist in order to submit itself for repetitive experimental tests for non-materiality, or (2) to be captured, imprisoned and then submitted to repetitive experimental tests for non-materiality. There is nothing which is more absurd or irrational.

(b) The existence of evidence for intervention (given and not refuted) does not in any way show that the non-physical agent exists – itself – in physical space. The conclusion to the opposite is false.

This has been repeated for you numerous times, and this is the last time: you are wasting time here with your refusal to accept or refute the logical errors in your arguments, and you proceed to continue to make them, over and over. That, godless, is irrational behavior in defense of irrational ideology.
(continued)

Stan said...

”If intervention does not occur, theism is false.”

You have been given evidence of intervention, over and over ad nauseum, and you do not ever refute it. So your argument is non-coherent, and has no value.

” Your game is rigged, which strongly points to a dogmatic, irrational mentality.”

Actual principle-driven, axiom based logic actually is rigged against logical fallacy and unsupported belief systems. However, it is biased in favor of arguments with truth values, rather than excuses. So yes, rationality is a discipline which is perceived as rigged against irrationality; it is firm in its rejection, with reasons, of false assertions and incorrect logical structures; it is the opposite of an irrational mentality.

”This is further confirmed by your absolutely ridiculous standards of proof for atheistic claims..”

The standards for Atheist claims are the exact same as Atheist standards for Theist claims; if they are unfair for Atheists then they are also unfair for Theists. But Atheists never relent in their standards for Theists, and complain when the exact same standards are applied to Atheism: that is the Special Pleading Fallacy which has been shown to you over and over ad nauseum: this is the last time for this, too. You are wasting time by asserting the same fallacies over and over while neglecting to address the fallacy itself.

”…AND your admission you would reject empirical evidence refuting your position.”

Absolute BULLSHIT – and unacceptable as has been shown to you before, and again now FOR THE LAST TIME: empirical data is inductive and cannot be considered to be a truth statement; if data is acquired which shows the NON_EXISTENCE_OF_A_NON_PHYSICAL_AGENT, I will consider it carefully, and assess its truth value after it has been experimentally verified, non-falsified, peer reviewed and data made public. However, surely you comprehend that science cannot address that issue, so the data will not be forthcoming.
” I love talking about this stuff, HOWEVER, your obvious insistence on refusing any sort of honest conversation has exhausted me.”

It is apparent that you do not accept logical analysis as honest conversation. And your continual dodging and weaving to avoid refuting basic Theism is the most likely source of your exhaustion. I think I detect an exit door opening in your world.

” Can I ask you one question though? Do you believe Allah clove the moon in half? Why or why not? Or is it ... irrelevant? Try and be straightforward if possible.”

My beliefs are irrelevant to the issue of whether Atheists can support their rejectionism, the issue which is the sole focus of this blog. If an Atheist takes a position on that, then that position would be subject to analysis. If you want an ecclesiastic position, then you would need to ask that question on an ecclesiastic site.

I think we are done here; I refuse to keep dealing with your same assertions over and over.

Martin said...

godless,

If intervention does not occur, theism is false.

This is just completely false. I've posted links to Aquinas' argument multiple times, and it's amazing how few people bother to read it.

Here it is again: http://rocketphilosophy.blogspot.com/2012/02/aquinas-first-way-express-version.html

godless said...

Yeah I agree Stan. We are just too far apart in our positions and just talking past each other. I think each of your charges of fallacy completely miss the mark, I explain why and you just repeat yourself, so I repeat myself, ad nauseum indeed.

Look how I say atheism is a belief, and you're like "ha gotcha atheism is a blind belief without supporting logic reason or evidence."

Sorry dude, that's blatant dishonesty right there.

” Can I ask you one question though? Do you believe Allah clove the moon in half? Why or why not? Or is it ... irrelevant? Try and be straightforward if possible.”

My beliefs are irrelevant to the issue of whether Atheists can support their rejectionism, the issue which is the sole focus of this blog.


So let's deal with a different assertion.

I assert that you reject this claim for near the same reasons I reject your non-physical claims.

I further assert you will be able to articulate such reasons in a logical and syllogistic fashion, meeting your own standards of proof.

I further assert that you will accept your own reasons for rejecting this particular theistic claim, rather than charging yourself with fallacy.

So. This is completely relevant. This is not about ecclesiasticism. This is about accepting or rejecting truth claims.

Answer the question.

godless said...

Martin.
If intervention does not occur, theism is false.

This is just completely false.


Being the source of all change

"The source of all change" more than suffices for an intervening deity.

Also, that entire argument only works if we suppose the nature of things is static. The axioms the entire argument is built on appear to be extremely shaky. Are you familiar with Zeno's paradoxes?

God keeps His Promises said...

”If intervention does not occur, theism is false.”

You have been given evidence of intervention,


Exactly.
The moon was split in two and rejoined to prove God is real and Mohammed is His Prophet. In front of witnesses.
EVERY TRIBE IN ARABIA WAS WATCHING! More witnesses in other countries!
And atheists call it a lie, and follow their low desires.

KK Dowling said...

The moon was split in two and rejoined to prove God is real and Mohammed is His Prophet. In front of witnesses.

This might sound irrational to you and Stan but I don't believe it. I can't prove it didn't happen but I still don't believe it.

yonose said...

godless,

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Note there no where is listed "non-physical agent" nor "generic theism".

How many of these claims do YOU accept?

Anyways, most of the points you brought I up I specifically addressed in my previous posts."


OK, so what you are actually against is every possible denominationalism which is shown from this source. The thing is, this argument still does not support your hypothesis that every single theist has a different theoretical definition from each other. There's not clear explanation about it whatsoever. I sustain that still it is not clear what is, what you directly criticize about theism. Every single argument you gave does not address the reason of why do you reject the basic thesis regarding theism, which is common from every branch.

Here's again my refutation of your argument in a nutshell:

1) [Zen Buddhism] defines the greater metaphysical reality as timless, spaceless, with inmanence and simplicity.

2) [Classical Theism] defines God as timeless, spaceless, with simplicity.

This implies that, God and Zen are different names of the same thing, or in one word, equivalent.

Most Buddhist and Christian denominations (including Roman Catholicism) develop from the concept of [Buddhist Zen], and [Classical Theism], respectively.

3) There's more than one person who suscribes to the Classical Theism view, on Judeo-Christian religions.

4) There's more than one person who suscribes to the Zen view of Buddhism.

So, it is safe to conclude that there's a significant number of believers that suscribe to equivalent definitions of that reality, or understand the possible sources of such reality.

Denominationalism does not imply that every single denomination is defining that non-material reality differently.

In short, which denomination or religion I accept is not relevant to the argument in question. It is still impossible to understand exactly what is what you criticize about Theism, if what you do is only rejecting the thesis which posits it from other arguments which do not directly address the issue. What is it what you critize and reject about theism, is still unclear.

(this is above, so continuing is below)

yonose said...

(here is below, far from above)

"Would you bother to expose, how to falsify from a scientific perspective, one homogenous simple, timeless, spaceless and inmanent agent?

I've explicitly addressed this question multiple times. You posing the question betrays a fundamental ignorance of my position."


Ok, I'll give you an answer. Your position is that the Question of God is a scientific one, is that correct?

Then if so, you have to admit, that you are adhering to Scientism. And one strong strand of Atheism supports its rejectionism with scientistic claims. The article of DoR is clear evidence of that kind of bevahioralism.

As a former skeptic, I acknowledge my previous mistakes.

DoR is an article filled with biased, opinion based misinformation.

The question of spiritual choosing is not related to the parameters used within the scientific method, so that also renders Atheism unfalsifiable from the use of the scientific method, because of its rejectionist nature.

It is safe to conlude, that the evidential source which could prove Atheism
true, does not come from a scientific background.

The possible evidence which surmounts for concepts related to Theism does not prove Theism itself either, but as it is logically stated, makes the adherence to the thesis which posits the basic definition more tenable, for example:

1)Miracle @ Lourdes
2)NDEs
3)Mystical Experiences

NDEs are addressable and falsifiable from a scientific perpective, but are dogmatic scientists which consciously ignore the consluive studies made. Still, NDEs do not prove Theism by themselves, but positive evidence of NDEs may make the adherence of it more tenable.

Miracles and Mystical Experiences may not be falsifiable from a scientific perspective yet, from the source of knowledge which concerns to such phenomena. Positive evidence of them, does not prove Theism itself true for everyone, but follow the logical process which could guarantee such worldview more tenable.

As it stands, there is no evidential source from adherents of Atheism to address the direct refutation of phenomena concerning a source of knowledge of this nature.

Making fast associations is easy, it just makes people opinionated, no more than that.

Kind Regards.

god less no more said...

Exactly.
The moon was split in two and rejoined to prove God is real and Mohammed is His Prophet. In front of witnesses.
EVERY TRIBE IN ARABIA WAS WATCHING! More witnesses in other countries!
And atheists call it a lie, and follow their low desires.


I am right there with you God Keeps His Promises! Can I call you God for short? Or how about GKHP?

I was little skeptical. But you actually answered my question! God put the moon back together again! I was so confused. I thought .. if god split the moon, then why is it whole? Man I was such a fool. Of course! God put it back together again!

There is NO WAY I can prove that wrong!

Sigh. Oh well. I guess I can't call myself an atheist anymore. Can I still indulge in low desires?

Stan said...

godless says,

”Look how I say atheism is a belief, and you're like "ha gotcha atheism is a blind belief without supporting logic reason or evidence."

Sorry dude, that's blatant dishonesty right there.”


Since you refuse to either refute the evidence presented you, or to present any logic or evidence of your own, then there is no dishonesty at all in this statement. Let me help you out again: logic looks like this:

Here is the argument against god(s), placed into a legitimate syllogistic format:

P1: IF [ X is the case], THEN [There is/are no god(s)];

P2: IT IS TRUE THAT [ X is the case];

C: THEREFORE: [There is/are no god(s)].

This does not include things like, “some people believe false things”, or “the god of the bible doesn’t adhere to my Atheist morality”, or “there are too many gods to actually refute”, or “the god you present is without any meat”, or any other excuse. X must demonstrate why it is impossible with necessary and sufficient conditions for that impossibility presented which are irrefutable. Otherwise it is not a deduction.

Empirical data looks like an hypothesis accompanied by experimental design, raw data, conclusion.

Wild guesses look like “Well, I just think you’re an idiot for believing something without logic or empirical evidence”. Which is approximately your assessment of the evidence presented to you.

” Can I ask you one question though? Do you believe Allah clove the moon in half? Why or why not? Or is it ... irrelevant? Try and be straightforward if possible.”

My beliefs are irrelevant to the issue of whether Atheists can support their rejectionism, the issue which is the sole focus of this blog.

So let's deal with a different assertion.

I assert that you reject this claim for near the same reasons I reject your non-physical claims.

I further assert you will be able to articulate such reasons in a logical and syllogistic fashion, meeting your own standards of proof.

I further assert that you will accept your own reasons for rejecting this particular theistic claim, rather than charging yourself with fallacy.

So. This is completely relevant. This is not about ecclesiasticism. This is about accepting or rejecting truth claims.”


” My beliefs are irrelevant to the issue of whether Atheists can support their rejectionism, the issue which is the sole focus of this blog.

So let's deal with a different assertion.”


This demonstrates exactly the communication issue here: you either cannot comprehend, or refuse to comprehend the statements handed to you. Let me parse the original statement:

” My beliefs…”

This refers, not to Atheist beliefs, but those beliefs which are mine;

” are irrelevant to the issue of… “

This refers to not being pertinent or having any bearing on…

”whether Atheists can support their rejectionism

This refers to Atheists, not to me; specifically to Atheists and not to me.

”the issue which is the sole focus of this blog.”

Meaning that the blog has one focus for discussion and will not be allowed to stray from that focus.

This means that it is only the truth claims Atheists make regarding Atheism are valid subject matter.

Hope this helps.

KK Dowling said...

"the blog has one focus for discussion and will not be allowed to stray from that focus."

So that's why you never post about global warming, homosexuals, right wing politics, and Obama. (Seriously "Homosexual Watch"?)

You have rational thought backwards. Things aren't real simply because one can't prove they are not. Most atheists aren't saying that there is a 100% no chance of a god, but you need to pretend that that's what they are ALL saying. This is worse than people who pretend all Christians are Fred Phelps because it strikes at the core of rationality itself.
You believe that god is real. Prove it.
You believe that the world is thousands of years old despite the mountains of evidence that it is much older? Then prove it!
You believe the Virgin Mary appeared to 14 year old girl? Prove it!
You believe Mohamed split the moon in two. Prove it!
Until you do I can't believe.

These claims are not true by default. These claims are not true because they can't be proved false.

Stan said...

KK Dowling says,

”The moon was split in two and rejoined to prove God is real and Mohammed is His Prophet. In front of witnesses.

This might sound irrational to you and Stan but I don't believe it. I can't prove it didn't happen but I still don't believe it.”


The point is not that miracles must be believed; miracles are temporal occurrences which are empirically valid only for the people actually involved. The point is that Atheists cannot claim that they can be certain that they did not occur. Atheism is the positive rejection of Theism and its claims; but Atheists have no actual certainty other than that which they imagine to be caused by Philosophical Materialism and Scientism: miracles are eliminated by definition; they cannot occur by decree.

The rest of us admit to not knowing anything except that which the eyewitnesses report, and for issues which are not conclusive or necessary to other understandings there is no reason to force a decision. For Atheists, however, the existence of such things as miracles and their reports represent a falsification of their ideology. That means that either the ideology or the miracle must be chosen. In order to protect their ideology, no matter how flawed logically, the miracle must be rejected without any evidence, empirical or otherwise, in support of the rejection. In other words, the rejection is made on ideological terms only, and is made with the express purpose of defending the ideology.

The point of referring to Lourdes as I often do is not to force belief in it, but to demonstrate that Atheists who make claims of “no evidence” are making false claims. As we have seen demonstrated here for the past weeks is that Atheists make claims, and then avoid admitting that they are false by the use of obtuse misinterpretations which they insist are valid despite the obvious failures of logical standards.

It is interesting that disproving miracles to be valid does not disprove the existence of a creating deity, but failing to disprove them eliminates any certainty which could be attributed to Atheism. Either way, the issue of miracles is a failure for Atheism.

KK Dowling said...

"For Atheists, however, the existence of such things as miracles and their reports represent a falsification of their ideology."

The existence of miracles? You refuse to prove miracles exist. It's not a given that miracles exist. You can't talk about the existence of these miracles until there is reason to believe they actually do exist. You are the one making the claim. Support it!

And "reports" being a problem? We know people tell stories. We know people say things that aren't true. We know that people sometimes explain things they don't understand in miraculous terms. We know that people believe things that aren't true. Isn't it more likely that this explains the moon-spliting and Lourdes?

"The point of referring to Lourdes as I often do is not to force belief in it, but to demonstrate that Atheists who make claims of “no evidence” are making false claims."

So you believe there is evidence that the Virgin Mary appeared to a 14 year old girl? Let's hear it.

So far the story sounds more flimsy than that moon being split in two but let us hear your reasons why I should believe it anyway. You are the one making the claim. Support it.

Stan said...

KK Dowling, part II:

”So that's why you never post about global warming, homosexuals, right wing politics, and Obama. (Seriously "Homosexual Watch"?)”

Shall we discuss why it is apparent that the Left, most homosexuals, Obama et al show all the dominant characteristics of Consequentialist Atheism?

”You have rational thought backwards. Things aren't real simply because one can't prove they are not. Most atheists aren't saying that there is a 100% no chance of a god, but you need to pretend that that's what they are ALL saying.”

This elderly argument was laid to rest by the Barna poll. To wit:

”5,000,000 adults claim Atheism and “staunchly reject the existence of such a being [God].”

”This is worse than people who pretend all Christians are Fred Phelps because it strikes at the core of rationality itself.”

Actually not in the least; it is supported by data. However, making universal declarations for which one has no corroborating evidence, and which is invalidated by actual data, is the type of reasoning which “strikes at the core of rationality itself”.

”You believe that god is real. Prove it.”

You have no idea what I believe.

”You believe that the world is thousands of years old despite the mountains of evidence that it is much older? Then prove it!”

You have no idea what I believe.

”You believe the Virgin Mary appeared to 14 year old girl? Prove it!”

You have no idea what I believe.

”You believe Mohamed split the moon in two. Prove it!”

You have no idea what I believe.

”Until you do I can't believe.”

Your beliefs are not up to me, they are your choice. I have no obligation to defend positions I have not asserted. You have falsely attributed beliefs to me which I do not hold.

”These claims are not true by default. These claims are not true because they can't be proved false.”

No such claims have been made here. The claim being made here is that Atheists cannot provide evidence for their own ideology, an unproven ideology which they accept without evidence under their own evidentiary theory, or logic under the standards for disciplined logic. Therefore Atheism is a belief without evidence or logic and is blind belief: a religiously held ideology that is outside rational auspices.

Moreover, when pressed on issues, Atheism demonstrates that it is necessary to make false assertions at every juncture in order to preserve the ideology.

Further, when pressed to take responsibility for logical fallacies in their assertions, Atheists will refuse to take any responsibility, again to preserve the ideology.

For Atheists it is apparent that the ideology of Atheism is more important than submitting to disciplined logic, grounded axiomatic support for syllogistic hypotheses, and rational falsification.

Stan said...

KK part III:

"For Atheists, however, the existence of such things as miracles and their reports represent a falsification of their ideology."

The existence of miracles? You refuse to prove miracles exist. It's not a given that miracles exist. You can't talk about the existence of these miracles until there is reason to believe they actually do exist. You are the one making the claim. Support it!


You are telling me what I can’t talk about? Let’s try this: you can’t talk about the non-existence of reported events with eyewitnesses unless and until you can refute them using Atheist evidentiary theory.

And "reports" being a problem? We know people tell stories. We know people say things that aren't true. We know that people sometimes explain things they don't understand in miraculous terms. We know that people believe things that aren't true. Isn't it more likely that this explains the moon-spliting and Lourdes?”

Claiming that some people are deluded indicates that a strong majority of people are deluded is the logical fallacy of Guilt by Association.

Plus, the fact that some people sometimes tell stories also applies to the story of Atheist disbelief: in fact, the extreme minority position of Atheism is more amenable to the delusion theory you are projecting: it is more likely that a few are deluded than that most are deluded.

"The point of referring to Lourdes as I often do is not to force belief in it, but to demonstrate that Atheists who make claims of “no evidence” are making false claims."

So you believe there is evidence that the Virgin Mary appeared to a 14 year old girl? Let's hear it.”


You are not paying attention. I did not say that I believe it: you have no idea what I believe and you are falsely attributing beliefs to me: the exact accusation which you made against me (which was false).

The claim has been made and documented about the occurrence at Lourdes. There exists residual physical evidence which is available for refutation, and which has not been refuted in the roughly 150 years since the date of the claim.

The claim is not mine; what I think about it has no bearing on its validity.

My claim is that Atheists cannot refute it using their own evidentiary theory and that therefore Atheists have no claim to certainty regarding miracles.

Now feel free to read what I wrote just above again.

”So far the story sounds more flimsy than that moon being split in two but let us hear your reasons why I should believe it anyway. You are the one making the claim. Support it.”

No. I am not making the claim. I make the claim that you cannot refute the 150 year old claim which is made. Look it up if you are going to refute it: very few Atheists actually even do that. Most of them just start making accusations and whines without any refutation in sight. Maybe you’ll be the first.

If not, then you have no case against miracles.

P.S. said...

"My claim is that Atheists cannot refute it using their own evidentiary theory and that therefore Atheists have no claim to certainty regarding miracles."

Are you going to support any of your claims?
To say that atheists "can not" means you must examine all evidentiary theories made and yet unmade. Every single theory must be disproved. For all time, past and present, through out the universe.

"in fact, the extreme minority position of Atheism is more amenable to the delusion theory you are projecting: it is more likely that a few are deluded than that most are deluded.

Billions of people believe that Mohammed split the moon in two. Does that make it any more likely? Truth does not depend on the number of people believing a claim.

Stan said...

PS says,
"To say that atheists "can not" means you must examine all evidentiary theories made and yet unmade. Every single theory must be disproved. For all time, past and present, through out the universe."

You are right; I make that challenge, not that claim.

And you make an excellent point: Atheists have a great many evidentiary theories or so it appears. That means that evidence seems to be relative to Atheists, their needs and the situation at hand. I originally had in mind a single evidentiary theory: empirical, experimental, replicable, falsifiable, peer reviewed science, since that claim comes up a lot.

But you are correct; Atheists actually use relativistic evidentiary theories in their positions and argumentations, theories which change as the situation demands.

So I concede that point: I do not make that claim, I make that challenge. Atheists are challenged to prove, using empirical, experimental, replicable, falsifiable and not falsified, peer reviewed with public data, evidence of the non-existence of a non-physical existence; a non-physical agent with the capability of creating a universe and with the capability of interfacing with its creation.

If Atheists have an evidentiary theory which is not empirical science as described above, then they are challenged to describe and defend it.

If Atheists know of a refutation which is made somewhere in time and space which refutes the metaphysical existences described above, they are challenged to present it.

If Atheism is based on logic and evidence, under standard disciplined logic and standard conditions of empirical science, then the Atheists are challenged to show that these are used (a) to verify their own validity (b) to refute the metaphysical issues above.


Next,

You criticise the idea that numbers of believers of a thing demonstrates the validity or non-validity of it.

That was exactly the point of my response, which was to this statement:

“And "reports" being a problem? We know people tell stories. We know people say things that aren't true. We know that people sometimes explain things they don't understand in miraculous terms. We know that people believe things that aren't true. Isn't it more likely that this explains the moon-spliting and Lourdes?”

My response was that under this illogic, Atheism itself is a viable candidate for the theory of delusion.

One must read the entire chain of comment-response-counter response, etc.

Stan said...

And back to Louurdes: Atheists always want to avoid using science in the discussion of Lourdes. Perhaps that is an indication of the failure of science as a tool for the investigation of such things. Or perhaps that is a failure of Atheists to grasp how well science would refute it, if they understood science. Either way, Atheists do not wish to discuss the empirical aspects of Lourdes, but would rather make up stories which they hope would alleviate the need to actually investigate and understand the problem and its possible resolution.

In other words, the common Atheist approach to Lourdes is to use wishful thinking to explain it away without having done a single neuron's worth of analytical thought on the subject, much less exercise any science in the effort to refute it. It appears that most Atheists won't even read the full eyewitness accounts before making up their stories about it.

As for being honestly science and logic based, the approach to Lourdes continually refutes that claim.