Saturday, March 9, 2013

The AtheoLeft Defense of Their Right To Kill

As far as I am concerned, the moral issue of abortion is settled. The supporters of abortion have only one argument: they have the right to devalue human life at whatever stage they choose, and the Right To Kill humans in that devalued category.

Their arguments of “woman’s right to choose” and “privacy” are logically ridiculous, since no person can claim a right to choose to kill his offspring except under the elitist’s human devaluation criteria – so the question devolves to the original argument.

And “privacy” as an argument is also ridiculous since no one can kill anyone just because it is a private matter, except under the elitist human devaluation criteria, so again the question devolves to the original argument.

The remotely related argument of a woman’s right to control her own body and her pursuit of happiness, also doesn’t apply to using her body to kill or to pursue her happiness at the death of another, except under the elitist human devaluation criteria.

The counter-arguments are relatively second-hand: “this blob can’t be the same value as its mother”. Embedded at the very surface of such arguments is the presumption of the Right To Devalue human life, followed by the Right To Kill devalued human life.

There is only one actual argument, and that is the elitist Leftist presumed, self-authorized, Right To Kill humans which they have devalued.

Their failure to address the moral relativity which was presented in the prior post demonstrates the ideological lock down which infests the worldviews of the AtheoLeft. They cannot defend the moral relativity which they assert for themselves. So they either disappear, shrinking from their intellectual and moral responsibility, or they ridicule the questions presented to them which demonstrate the moral relativity specifically for them. (Or they ignore all that and reassert the failed positions, above).

The overall demonstration of the false moral principles which inhabit the AtheoLeft when they leave the ecstasy of the VOID shows up clearly when abortion is the subject.

Addendum:
The Left's Right To Kill seems also to be supported by their lack of empathy for the victims of Benghazi, and the victims of the Justice Department's gun walker schemes. This indicates that killing, when done by members of the Leftist idelogy, is of no concern. And guns are of no concern either... unless there is an ideological advantage to cursing them, as was provided by the Newtown massacre; then the Left goes into a lathered frenzy in their attempts to remove arms from good citizens as opposed to the Justice Department.

Not to mention, of course, Eric Holder's initial refusal to define the limits of presidential power to drone-kill Americans on American soil... until humiliated by Rand Paul's highly visible filibuster which pried out a more legitimate opinion. The Left not only did not support Rand, they ridiculed him, indicating a complete lack of interest in who gets killed by whom so long as it is on the Left.


28 comments:

DaniEl said...

Satan loves abortion.

One day, I was going to the library to use the computer as my second one had been stolen.
And I was reading up on the horrors of abortion to use in some arguments I was holding online and for the open air preaching I was doing.

As I looked in horror at the terrible photos of partial birth abortions and the terrible techniques used by planned parenthood, Satan was again in my ear saying over and over, "See! See what I've been doing? See what my servants are willing to do for me!!
I love it!! I Love It! I LOVE IT!!!"

What a creep.

The next day I was open air preaching at the cable car turnaround on Powell and Market.
There are always a lot of international and American tourists there so I would go there to declare that the judgment of San Francisco and LA is at hand in hopes that the message would spread around the world.

I would usually make the point that abortion, or child sacrifice is usually the last straw for God before He puts His foot down in judgement.
I would ask the crowd, "Do you support abortion as a right? Then you are guilty of every one of 46 million murders in your heart!"

One day I was preaching on abortion and the judgment it will bring and asking passers by, "Are you pro-choice?"
And they almost always say yes in SF, and I would say, "GUILTY of mass murder!"
I turned to see the next passer by and it was a man so hideous in form, I shuddered.
He looked like something from a horror movie. Like a wax figure that had been near an oven and was melting before my eyes. Others were looking at this man with shock and revulsion.

I asked him, "Do you support abortion!"
And he replied, "I love it, I Love It! I LOVE IT!!!"

Then I knew who was passing by.

Steven Satak said...

To all: do not feed the troll.

Stunned. said...

I about to make a post on Tumblr about what I've learnt here.

I'm not going to misrepresent you so I'm going to ask you a question about this newer picture. They are marked A,B,C,D,E,F and X. This is the graphic that I'm going to use in my post about you so please be clear and use the letters.

Is A's life equivalent to X? Is A worth saving as much as X? Not asking for relative values just are they the same value? Which letters are human life?

Steven, Raging, Daniel feel free to answer too. It's not essential but I'd also like to hear what letters you would protect and how. I believe only picture X is human life worth saving. I don't mind if you post the same picture to illustrate any thing you want to say about me, like, I don't know "Ric 'Stunned' Simpson only believes X is worth living" or anything you want. (It's a combination of uncopyright public domain images).

Do you want me to post a link to your site. I was going to default to "yes" but you may not want extra eyeballs and I will respect your wishes if you say no.

-Ric "Stunned" Simpson

Stunned. said...

Now that I think about it I should ask the questions in your words since my post will be about you.

Which letter is the "fully differentiated and individuated human"?

Stan said...

Stunned says,

”I'm not going to misrepresent you so I'm going to ask you a question about this newer picture. They are marked A,B,C,D,E,F and X. This is the graphic that I'm going to use in my post about you so please be clear and use the letters.”

Go ahead and link to this blog as many places as you wish.

Your valuation question applies only to those who think that they have the moral authority to devalue human life, not to those of us who do not devalue humans at all. You have completely avoided the questions directed at you, and now you continue with the devaluation testing, only using a different medium in order to attempt to force a devaluation where none should exist. Your attempt is blatantly dishonest; forcing a false devaluation does not help your position in the least: You continue to claim the elitist Right To Kill, based on your claim to the Right To Devalue human life.

To restate, so that you might finally understand: You are not special. Leftist philosophy does not make you actually elite, it only deceives you into thinking you are special, and can make death decisions for others who you do not even know.

However, you have no moral Right To Devalue human life at any stage of human development.

You have no moral Right To Kill human life outside of judicial auspices and conviction of guilt which prescribes death by law (I also don’t agree with the death penalty, but that’s another issue).

You have no right to declare “the only human life worth saving”. The arrogance of that statement, alone, is staggering.

Your presumption of these Rights indicates your elitist and fundamentally totalitarian worldview, in which you think you can prescribe death merely by your opinion of the value of a subcategory of humans. This is inherently dangerous to everyone who is not you. And that is why Atheists and Leftists cannot be trusted: they have no common morality, and the personally fabricated moralities which they create for themselves can be used to elevate their egos into faux elitism and faux moral authorities over other humans. They and you are so invested in this false personal elitism fantasy that you/they cannot address the actual issues, but instead you continue to attempt to force devaluation of your targeted set of human victims: the voiceless, the defenseless, wholly differentiated and individuated humans at a normal and essential stage of human development.

Yes. By all means link this to as many other sites as possible. As soon as possible. Yes! Do it!

We should point out the Atheist faux morality to whoever shows up here.

Stunned. said...

I'm not trying to force any devaluation.
If you don't want to place relative values then you could say A,B,C,D,E,F and X all have the same value. No devaluation required. Equality. Just tell me which letters you think are "fully differentiated and individuated humans" (and you can say ALL if you want) and I'll write about your answer and its implications.
I think X is the only "fully differentiated and individuated human".

Stan said...

Stunned,
Why not quit with the b.s. You absolutely are, quite transparently, attempting to demonstrate relative values by posting photos which no one knows the source or subject and by then trying to demostrate that some of the photos are not even human, so the stupid fools were fooled by your clever trick. Therefore, any embryo or zygote or (human at a valid stage of human development) can be killed because it was misidentified in your photos.

That is juvenile; you think we are fools. You think you are elite. You think you are an intellectual, despite your lack of logic training or ability.

Here are the legitimate issues, which you dodge over and over - demonstrating intellectual cowardice. Do not fail to answer these; they are the only issues and the only remaining conversation available to you.

1. Explain in detail why you are special, and morally authorized to devalue humans who are at a normal, necessary stage of human development to less than human status.

2. Explain in detail why you are special, and morally authorized to declare the moral acceptability of killing humans at a normal, necessary stage of human development - those who in your personal opinion are not human life worth saving (your words).

If you do not address the issues of your personal elitism and totalitarian worldview, then there is no reason left to discuss anything at all with you.

Your continued avoidance of the actual issues, above, will determine whether there will be any future discussion with you.

Stunned. said...

Fine, to stop you worrying. A is a fertilized egg. B & C are zygotic. Then the blastocoel in D. X is a woman. I don't believe A has the same value as X. A to F are not "fully differentiated and individuated humans". X could have been a baby and it would be the same.

You made a lot of statements about me and my motivations that you can not possibly know.

1. Whether or not they are human is the premise that need to be examined not the conclusion.
2. Even if we thought a fertilized egg was a human (a point on which you clearly can't answer me), we as a society make decisions about what humans we support and even what humans we kill. Opinions differ but this is a society.

Avey Owyns said...

This was a great article.

Steven Satak said...

@Stunned: the fact is, you are devaluing humans at a normal stage of their development - a stage YOU passed through, remember - to the status of 'not human' for the express purpose of killing them.

They are helpless, innocent and could not possibly have earned such a death.

This is disgusting.

I know that term is not in vogue among the self-described "intellectual elites". They prefer to discuss such things with detachment - as though they were discussing the relative merits of having a tooth pulled. As though detachment could somehow clean the act of its blood and shame.

"Thou shalt not murder"

You can talk all you like about reducing a baby to a thing. Perhaps it externalizes the reality enough for you that you can feel empathy for the mother - but not the individual she carries.

Well, I have news for you. Your empathy is selective. Highly selective. And therefore suspect. I have already said this, but I will say it again - your criteria for killing a developing human being is based on convenience. It has nothing to do with 'rights'. The same method you use to make that choice can easily be turned against human beings at ANY stage of their development.

Have you considered that you lack something the rest of the population has? Or do you honestly believe all of the rest of humanity is crazy, and you (the self-appointed elite) have the only proper outlook?

I have seen Atheists claim exactly that - that the best and the brightest of humanity are not as smart as they are, because those people were theists. And we all know how dumb that is.

And you wonder why we fight shy of you every chance we get. I will trust an atheist with my bank account. But little else. I do not want to be sucked into your delusion.

A. Campbell said...

Everyone's just assumed that that tiny cell-sized circle is a baby. Only one person is asking "Is it? Why?".
It's not enough to assume your premises. If you want to convince people you need to show why your premises are true. It doesn't look like you care about convincing people. I've seen one person want to discuss it and all you've done is call him names.
Take the first step towards rationality instead of emotional raving and name calling. But it will mean giving up the overheated, over-suspicious, overaggres­sive, grandiose, and apocalyptic in expression style of talking.
I mean two can play at that game. I believe you enjoy feeling you live in a hostile and conspiratorial world in which you are lone spokesmen for a culture or a way of life whose fate effects not millions of imaginary others. (You don't really care about real live women just imaginary babies).
This baiting and trolling of your opponents goes far to intensify your feeling of righteousness and moral indignation. You need opponents to reinforce that feeling of moral superiority. Without unbelievers you are just ranting to yourself.
You need to state your beliefs externally to reinforce them internally but you must never examine them. Examine them and you may find you've build your house on sand and then all is lost.

Stan said...

A. Campbell,
You have apparently not read any of the actual arguments being made here. Allow me to lay them out for you, numerically:

1. The AtheoLeftists propose the following argument: just LOOK at the fertilized egg! How can you say that it has any value as a human?

2. I propose the following argument: The fertilized egg contains a fully differentiated and individuated, living human at the first stage of normal human development, a stage which every and all humans go.

The fertilized egg and all subsequent stages of development are necessary, normal stages of human development which are necessary human properties which every human undergoes. Further, to kill a fertilized egg terminates the human, denying her/him further life.

3. The AtheoLeft counter argument is this: just LOOK at the fertilized egg! How can you say that it has any value as a human?

Here is a question for you: Which argument is the emotional one, which has no premise?

To help you along a bit, #2 has actual empirical data to support it.

Now. Go ahead and answer all the questions posed in this and previous comments, above.

As an individual incentive, you would be the first to answer these questions; all other AtheoLeftists strictly avoid them because they are fatal to their elitism and their ideology.

Go ahead and be First.

Stan said...

Also, A. Campbell, Your charges of paranoia are demonstrbly false. It is not paranoia if there are FACTS which support your observations.

Here is a fact: no one has called a fertilized egg, a baby. It is a human at a normal stage of human development, as has been defined over and over above. So your charge, above is false, and your terminology is false.

Here is another fact: Your term "imaginary babies" refers, if properly parsed, to the humans who will never be babies, because they were killed before they could be babies.

Here is another fact: I have stated that women who have real and actual health issues should go to hospitals, not abbatoirs. In a hospital the care for both individuals, mother and preborn, will be considered - whereas in an abortion abbatoir, one always, always, is killed regardless of any health considerations. Empathy for women's health does not entail convenience killing of preborns. It is demonstrable that many women come out of the killing abbatoirs LESS healthy, both mentally and physically, than when they entered.

Here is another fact: The use of the killing abbatoirs rather than hospitals indicates the specific intent to kill. The fatality rate of humans in abortion abbatoirs is always >50%. ALWAYS.

Here is another fact: there is zero empathy from the AtheoLeft for those who die in abortion abbatoirs.

Further, what you have written is a Tu Quoque which is unsupportable.

Now. Argue these facts. You are welcome to argue actual facts.

If you decline to argue facts, then just go away.

Avey Owyns said...

"No one has called a fertilized egg, a baby. It is a human at a normal stage of human development, as has been defined over and over above."

That's a good point I'll have to remember.

I kind of felt like calling the fetus 'a fetus' was dehumanizing it. But just as a baby is not an adolescent, or an adult, or an elder and maintains it's humanity, so can the unborn when called a 'fetus.'

It still feels kind of detached through.

Stunned. said...

"Here is a fact: no one has called a fertilized egg, a baby. "

More than one person has used the term "baby".

"You can talk all you like about reducing a baby to a thing." Steven two hours before Cambell mentioned it.

"about fetuss and zygoats WRONG it's a baby" "Femanazi baby killers" -Raging

"by his prior injection of digoxin to kill the baby first" -Stan

Stunned. said...

"I propose the following argument...

Before anyone can consider that argument you need to provide evidence for the premises. Start at the start: "The fertilized egg contains a fully differentiated and individuated, living human".
By what definition is a fertilized egg "individuated"? It could be argued that the egg is not "a separate and distinct entity"?
Since division of the zygote into twins through the process of monozygotic twinning can occur weeks into pregnancy how was the original egg "individuated"?
The most important one: Why is it "fully human"? What is it about a fertilized egg that makes the egg fully human?

That's just the beginning but once you add support for your premises then a discussion can be had.

Thanks, Ric "Stunned".

Stan said...

Ric"stunned",
Your continued attack on definitions and terminology doesn't alleviate the fact of killing.

Nor does it negate the fact that the egg is a living individual which carries its own DNA, which describes an individual which is neither its mother nor its father. The fact that it could be twins has no bearing on the fact that is not its mother and not its father. It is fully human just as you were fully human when you necessarily passed through each stage of your own development.

Your attempt to deny "full" humanity is so reminiscent of prior eugenic "philosophies" that it is positively eerie.

Go ahead and argue definitions, since that is all you have. You have not answered any of the actual issues. You *choose* to deny humanity to even yourself, at that necessary stage of development. And that is because you are enamored of your personal elitist "privilege" of defining down humans which you wish to kill.

This is classical Rationalization, a logic and rational failure where you choose a conclusion which you really, really want badly, and then you search for ways to suport that conclusion while ignoring all evidence and logic which is against that conclusion.

The AtheoLeft really, really wants to preserve their Right To Devalue certain selected human categories and their Right To Kill that category at will and wantonly. They make up ridiculous arguments including the woman's right to kill her progeny, the woman's right to kill in privacy, the woman's right to kill for her pursuit of happiness, it is "healthcare" for a woman to kill, along with the devaluation of the humans who they currently wish to kill.

Either answer this, or you confirm the truth of those factual observations by your inability to refute them. And answer the prior questions regarding the truth of abortion; otherwise you are just a irrational Rationalizing apologist for eugenic killing, who ignores facts which are inconvenient to your preselected conclusion, and tries to deflect the conversation by redefining terms.

Life said...

"Go ahead and argue definitions"

What definitions? Definitions seem to be what's missing. some guys say the fertilised egg is human and the other guys say "what do you mean the egg is human?" This is very different from the last time I visited this site when we were talking about when the soul enters the body.

"redefining terms."

Where is he/she doing this? The terms haven't been defined yet they can't be redefined.

Stan said...

Life,
You are talking without actually knowing what has gone on before. Maybe you should read up.

Primum non nocere said...

Abortion is murder in every case. There is no moral reason for a woman to ever have an abortion. One must be pro-life without exception. There is no such exception as 'life of the mother', and as far as 'health of the mother'. We must respond to all tragic circumstances of pregnancy from the unshakeable foundation of two indisputable premises: human life begins at conception, and it is always wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being. We should not kill an unborn baby to alleviate the suffering of the mother any more than we should kill her infant to alleviate her suffering. A murderer of one person is not any less a murderer if he allows thousands to live, nor if he saves thousands from dying!

We must not be swayed from our pro-life ethic by emotional appeals that admittedly swell our eyes with tears. Truth and compassion prevent us from this fatal compromise. Let us remind ourselves of our two basic premises: human life begins at fertilization, and it is absolutely wrong to intentionally kill innocent human beings.

Steven Satak said...

@ Primum non nocere: I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone sockpuppetted a caricature of a 'pro-life' supporter. It's a fake, and you can tell by the way the 'supporter' intentionally ignores the idea that if the mother dies, the baby dies - and someone has to choose.

The choice is not lightly made and it is a burden, but it is not an issue of convenience and is done, if I am not mistaken, in a hospital setting.

That's actually a pretty crappy try for an atheist puppeteer. I would like to chalk it up to a lack of reason and accountability, but it's probably just laziness. Standard 'drive-by' attempt from a bored 'intellectual' (sometimes it seems like they are all bored).

I am sure this is not the first time Stan has been presented with an "embarrassing supporter" whose absurd claims he must deny - to the apparent detriment of his own argument. But there is no substance.

Nothing to see here, folks. Next!

Stan said...

observation:
There is still not a single abortionista who is willing to tell us how he got his moral authority to devalue categories of humans, and how he got his moral authority to declare the acceptablity of killing those devalued humans.

It is shameful, actually, for those who can experience shame. Atheists seem to have no shame; shame presupposes guilt, and Atheists live under moralities chosen so that they never have guilt. So there is no possible shame for them. That undoubtedly is part of the joy of the Atheist VOID: self-defined into moral perfection means no guilt, and no shame.

Shame being part of the operation of the conscience, it is easily seen how the Atheist conscience atrophies, and hence the concept of empathy comes to have a new and different meaning for the Atheist. Empathy cannot apply to devalued humans. Empathy applies only to specifically designated classes of Victims, classes which allow the Messiahs to function up to their elitism.

Primum non nocere said...

When the life of the mother is truly threatened by her pregnancy, if both lives cannot simultaneously be saved, then saving the mother’s life must be the primary aim. If through our careful treatment of the mother’s illness the pre-born patient inadvertently dies or is injured, this is tragic and, if unintentional, is not unethical and is consistent with the pro-life ethic. But the intentional killing of an unborn baby by abortion is never necessary.

vivalaleta said...

Your own God, Stan, has no compunctions about killing the unborn and would apparently do it for the worst of reasons - to punish the mother.
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

Stan said...

First off, you have no idea whether I have any specific or general religious conceptualizations. So your biblical attack is disingenuous.

Next, you make your biblical references in a Tu Quoque attempt which is (a)logically a fallacy, (b) which you have no idea whether it even applies, and (c) which you take completely out of context, which you clearly do not comprehend.

The context is the existence of a being superior to yourself, which, having created yourself, is fully able to remove yourself from existence should that being wish. You, of course, do not think any being is superior to yourself, nor has the right to remove you from existence. BUT, you feel that you have the right to remove other humans from existence. You are, therefore, the god who kills preferentially. At least in your own mind.

Finally, you have not addressed a single issue which is posted; you ignore your own culpability for killing humans, while being merely another human yourself. You presume your moral authority to kill as you define the parameters for killing. But you do not defend your presumption of moral authority over others.

You attack only your competition for godhood. Good luck with that.

vivalaleta said...

Forgive me. I assumed you were a Christian. As a former believer myself, schooled in Biblical theology, I further assumed you to find assurance for your faith in the entire Bible. Apparently instead you are an adherent to a cult.
Your argument is I can't use the verses from the Bible to attack your beliefs because they are the word of God and so then automatically beyond my understanding? How absurd. The Bible was written by antique, uneducated men and the morals, stories and laws contained within perfectly reflect their origin which is anything but holy.

Stan said...

And yet you still do not address the points made in the article, much less defend your own position. And your attack being in defense of killing other humans, you are not in a position to judge anyone else who kills. Especially a creating deity far more powerful than yourself.

Further, there is nothing logically absurd about the concept of a creating entity which can meddle in its own creation. If you think otherwise, then provide the disciplined, deductive logic and/or empirical, falsifiable, replicable and replicated, peer reviewed and published data to prove otherwise. Those are the sole currency of knowledge within the Atheist VOID. So they are the only acceptable forms of argument from Atheists. Anything else is merely opinion, not fact and certainly not knowledge.

That would be the educated approach, and you are proud of your education, aren't you?

Next, your own holiness: what is its source? How did you obtain or attain your personal moral authority?

Finally, either address the questions and issues posed, or admit that you cannot, despite your presumed self-elitness to the humans described in the bible, and especially to humans who exist now in specific categories which you designate as devalued to the state of destroyable upon whim.

Stan said...

BTW,
Your second assumption is also false. Unless you consider respect for disciplined deduction to be owned by a cult.

What is your next moral judgment of me?