Monday, September 27, 2010

Is Atheism a Religion?

Maverick Philosopher is asked whether he thinks that Atheism is a religion. The topic has arisen on other sites as well. Maverick hedges rather than take a firm position, and it appears that the reason is definitional. Maverick resolves belief systems into two categories:

”But it strikes me as decidedly odd to characterize a militant anti-religionist as having a religion. Indeed, it smacks of a cheap debating trick: "How can you criticize religion when you yourself have a religion?" I prefer to think along the following lines. Start with belief-system as your genus and then distinguish two species: belief-systems that are theoretical, though they may have practical applications, and belief-systems that are by their very nature oriented toward action. Call the latter ideologies. Then distinguish between religious and non-religious ideologies. Marxism and militant atheism are non-religious ideologies while the Abrahamic religions and some of the Eastern religions are religious ideologies.

But this leaves me with the problem of specifying what it is that distinguishes religious from non-religious ideologies. Perhaps this: all and only religions make reference to a transcendent reality, whether of a personal or impersonal nature, contact or community or identification with which is the summum bonum and the ultimate purpose of human existence.”
Maverick immediately recognizes the problem with Buddhism not fitting well into his categories, but concludes,
”There are a number of tricky and unresolved issues here, but I see little point in calling militant atheism a religion, though I concede it is like a religion in some ways.”
Why not define religion as a belief system containing characteristics that are common to entities that refer to themselves as religions, and see how well Atheism fits into that?

Is Atheism Really a Religion? [note 1]
“Stephen Jay Gould launched a direct attack on religion thereby exposing the true religious nature of Darwinism. After quoting Psalm 8 "Thou has made him a little lower than the angels...thou madest him to have dominion...thou has put all things under his feet." Gould went on to state, "Darwin removed this keystone of false comfort more than a century ago, but many people still believe that they cannot navigate this vale of tears without such a crutch." Ending the article, Gould admonished his readers, "Let us praise this evolutionary nexus, a far more stately mansion for the human soul than any pretty or parochial comfort ever conjured by our swollen neurology to obscure the source of our physical being, or to deny the natural substrate for our separate and complementary spiritual quest."

Regarding Gould’s article in “Science”, 6-25-’99;
“High Priest of Evolution Reveals his Religion” Gary L. Achtemeier, Ph.D. (emphasis added).

What exactly constitutes “being a religion”? The internet has dozens, maybe hundreds of conflicting definitions for religion. Here is a fairly inclusive composite definition.

Religion:
Religion is a complete worldview composed of some or all of the following elements:

1. Cognition of essence of reality, and levels (Godelian) of reality:
a. Natural essence (First Principles of existence and truth)
b. Intuitive essence (First level of validation)

c. Spiritual essence (Second level of validation).

2. Stories concerning the essences:
a. Origin Story
1. Origin of the cosmos

2. Origin of life

3.Origin of man
b. Purpose of Life Story

c. Value of Life Story

d. “Becoming” Story

e. Afterlife / Beyond life Story

3. Statements of Belief
a. Statement of Faith (Non-negotiable)

b. Statement of Ethos

c. Statement of Heresy

d. Statement of The Sacrosanct

e. Statement of Evangelism

f. Statement of Evil

g. Statement of Apostacy
4. Hierarchy
a. High Priests

b. Teachers, evangelizers

c. Becomers
5. Sacred Legacies
a. Texts, documents, unquestionable absolute truths.

The Atheist Worldview

Unlike, say, Buddhism, Atheism has almost all of these features. Let’s expand each worldview component to see how Atheism fits:

Cognition of reality, and levels (Godelian) of reality:
a. Natural essence (First Principles of existence and truth)
Atheism is first and foremost Naturalist and Materialist. For now, we will assume that the Atheist accepts the First Principles of existence and truth.

b. Intuitive essence (First level of validation)
By accepting the First Principles of existence and truth, by default the Atheist affirms the existence of intuition, which is the means for validation of the innate truth of the First Principles. This will produce stress for the Atheist, who might deny the concept of intuition, but who will exercise intuition by accepting the materialism of the First Principles. This produces a violation of the second First Principle: a paradox, within which the Atheist lives.

c. Spiritual essence (Second level of validation)
Atheism will specifically deny any spiritual essence. This denial becomes part of the Atheist Statement of Faith, coming up.

Stories concerning the essences:

a. Origin Story
i. Origin of the cosmos

ii. Origin of life

iii Origin of man
Evolution is the Origin Story of Atheism. It is the Atheist’s ABSOLUTE Truth, unassailable, unquestionable cant; dogma. It is manipulated into forms for explaining not only the cosmos, life, and human origins, but also the origin of morality, and anything else that had an origin.

b. Purpose of Life Story
Life is a random accident according to the absolutist dogma of Evolution. Atheism therefore sees absolutely no purpose to life beyond the perpetuation of one’s own genes, as natural selection occurs. So the sole purpose of life is genetic self perpetuation. Denial of this sole purpose leads to other paradoxes.

c. Value of Life Story
Again, life being a random accident according to absolutist Evolution cant, life has no value; there are no values in a randomly assembled world. The evolutionist claim of evolved morality is not accepted by many Atheists. Some claim that human value is in procreation; others claim that value is found only in the ability to produce. So life, by itself, has no inherent value, and eugenics can (and has) become a “legitimate” topic.

d. Becoming” Story
The evolution of life to produce the evolutionist is the “becoming” story. There is nothing else to become, once one has naturally materialized, so to speak. However, “becoming” an Atheist is seen as total liberation from annoying moral restrictions, and restrictions of any kind including western, rational, non-contradictory thought. There is a thought that humans will evolve into something higher-ordered, becoming a race of super-humans. However there is absolutely no sign of such a genetic lineage so far.

e. Afterlife Story
With nothing else to become, once the spark of life has gone there is nothing left but the material fodder for worms (M.M.O’Hair).

Statements of Belief

a. Statement of Faith (Non-negotiable)
The dogma of Evolution is taken on 100% faith as follows; faith that there is no other possible position; faith that “science” will find all the answers; faith in the [irrational] connections drawn between supposed “ancestors”; faith in the supremacy of the mind of man.

A Faith Statement might be as follows:
I have complete, non-negotiable FAITH in the following tenets:
· Faith that the supreme intelligence in the universe is me, embodied in my mind.

· Faith that the appearances of design are false.

· Faith that the first life self-assembled from warm chemicals in goo.

· Faith that the universe is a self-induced, random occurrence.

· Faith that a “multiverse” that we can’t see is a rationale for a random universe producing life (Anthropic principle is false).

· Faith that my mind is an assembly of random mutations, with no actual purpose beyond survival of the fittest. (A Meat Machine). Even so, it is the supreme intelligence in the universe.

· Faith that the brain and the mind are one thing, inseparable.

· Faith that there is no intelligence in DNA.

· Faith that if I can’t sense it, it does not exist. (No metaphysical existence).

· Faith that empiricism is the one and only true path to all-encompassing Truth and Enlightenment.

· Faith in Evolution, which is unquestionable; it is non-negotiable truth. See “Heresy”, below.

· Faith that, because Evolution is non-negotiable truth, life has no meaning.

· Faith that after death there are only worms.


b. Statement of Ethos
Anyone familiar with Jeffry Dahmer, Madelyn Murray O’Hair, or Peter Singer will realize that the ethical code of Atheism is “Any Code I Desire” (A.C.I.D.) In fact any code that benefits me, right now, at this very moment. The code is total Narcissism.

c. Statement of Heresy
The fight for the minds of school children is in fact a battle to eliminate heresy from the religious world of Atheism by means of governmentally-enforced installation of the Sacred Text of absolutist Darwinism into the schools. Referral to a second Godellian level of validation (spirituality) is heresy to the Atheist, who will take it as a serious affront to the Atheist Faith. So the exclusive installation of the sacred Precepts of absolutist Darwinism into the minds of children is imperative.

d. Statement of the Sacrosanct
Naturalism, and Materialism are sacred Beliefs. Empiricism and Forensics are the Sacred Rituals. Absolutist Evolution is Sacred Truth, unquestionable and therefore sacred dogma.

e. Statement of Evangelism
Evangelism is highly organized and fatly funded; the ACLU and Planned Parenthood have been government funded to the tune of millions. Evangelism is done primarily by threat, just as is Wahabi Islam; it is a form of domestic terrorism. A heretic is threatened with financial ruin by litigation by the fattened Atheist Evangelists. However, indoctrination is already state-imposed in many public school systems. The next generation is under constant evangelistic siege.

f. Statement of Evil
As with any cult, evil is seen everywhere in the form of other religious faiths. In a stunning twist of logic, the purveyors of the ethical code that protects the Atheist (Christianity, the Bible and the Ten Commandments) are deemed evil. And any attack on the Sacred Precepts of Absolutist Darwinism are evil. The credo is that “science is not to be corrupted by the inroads of ’religion’ in the classroom”. So the denial of the next Godel level and the internal Type 2 (b) paradox are institutionalized.

Hierarchy
a. High Priests

The celebrity scientists and philosophers clearly are the high priests of Atheism: Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Stephen J. Gould, Bertrand Russell, Theodore Dobzhansky, Carl Sagan, celebrities all. In politics, Marx, Stalin, Hitler, Mao. In the media, pick a channel; in Hollywood, pick a movie star; in the U.S. Senate, pick a Kennedy or a Clinton.

b. Teachers, evangelizers
The tool of Evolution, plus the duality of modern secularism has made most school teachers into evangelists for Atheism. The media of all types is also secularly dualist, and promotes not only Evolution, but all forms of corrupted thought that contributes to secularization.

c. Becomers
Every young person on the way to college is a potential “becomer” for the Atheist evangelist to victimize. In fact, the inroads into lower schools made by Planned Parenthood operatives has made even first graders into to potential candidates to victimize.

Sacred Legacies
a. Texts, documents, unquestionable absolute truths.
The theory of Evolution, being the only hope for the Atheist, is the holiest of absolute, unquestionable truths. In fact, by way of contradiction and paradox, the completely relativistic universe of the Atheist is interrupted by one Holy, Absolute, Unquestionable, Unassailable Truth: Evolution.

Without Evolution, the Atheist has no logic at all because everything else in the Atheist world is relative; only Evolution is Absolute Truth. With Evolution, the Atheist need only deny a few details here and there, such as in Darwin’s Dodge, and Darwin’s Horrid Doubt, along with the other Darwinian falsifications. Then all the rest of life is free of all restrictions.

Conclusion
So Atheism satisfies the criteria for religion-hood. In fact it’s a better fit than some other religions, such as Buddhism. Atheism is the religion of self, of narcissism.

Supremacy of the Mind
When Atheism concludes that there is no deity, it presupposes that the human mind is capable of knowing all that a deity might know, all that a deity could do, all that a deity would see. This automatically places the Atheist mind in an exalted place, as the source of all truth.

“My mind is supreme”.
As the source of all truth, the Atheist mind and its thoughts about itself and reality become an objects of awe and worship, and the situation becomes that of pagan self-worship. The Atheist might argue (and done in Kaufman v. McCaughtry) that, no, Atheism is the anti-religion. This merely summons the next question: Is an anti-religion a religion?

Aside from the affirmative legal arguments, consider this: Is disorder (entropy) a form of order? Is a null-set a set? Is zero a number? So is believing in “nothing” the same as believing in “something”? Is it the “something” that makes it a religion, or is it the belief? If it is the belief, is belief in “nothing” a religion?

The Atheist Faith
Belief in nothing is a belief without proof, a leap of faith. And because self-validation is an act of Godellian illogic as well as a classical paradox, Atheism is a blind leap into illogic…the very definition of “religion” that Atheist’s love!

The answer is clearly “yes”, Atheism is, in fact, a religion. And it develops its own sets of rules to govern it. One such set is Secular Humanism, also legally declared a religion. Other rabid Atheist groups have their own sets of rules. So Atheism, the “anti-religion” paradox, and despite flimsy denials, is a religion. It is auto-pagan (self worship)…Narcissism.

How Do Atheists Determine Morality?
“Some say there is no objective morality. When told that a certain individual believed that morality is a sham, Samuel Johnson responded, ‘Why sir, if he really believes there is no distinction between virtue and vice, let us count our spoons before he leaves’."
Atheists bristle at the suggestion that a-theism equates to a-morality. Yet the “Paradox of the Honest Atheist” clearly illustrates the paradoxical dilemma that the Atheist position produces with respect to morality, including all self-derived ethics.

Because the Atheist mind is the “source of all truth”, morality is determined by each individual Atheist mind. So there will be as many moralities as there are Atheists… creating a chaotic amalgam of contradictions (Godel Type 2 (b) Paradoxes) under a single banner.

Or perhaps the Atheist co-opts an existing morality, while rejecting the source of that morality. This would be an intellectually compromising position. Yet I co-opted the Judeo-Christian ethic myself, as did many others also, ignoring the intellectual dishonesty such a position entails. This is a common state of existence for many Atheists: ignore the contradictions and live inside the paradox.

Chapman Cohen [(1868-1954) third president of the National Secular Society, Britain's largest Atheist organization] wrote in “Morality Without God”:
“The moral feeling creates the moral law; not the other way about. Morality has nothing to do with God; it has nothing to do with a future life. Its sphere of application and operation is in this world; its authority is derived from the common sense of mankind and is born of the necessities of corporate life.”
And,
“Finally, in the development of morality as elsewhere, nature creates very little that is absolutely new. It works up again what already exists. That is the path of all evolution.”
So according to Cohen, the moral feeling came first, then evolved into rules. But just as Darwin refused to address First Life and the origin of the mind, so Cohen does not address the origin of the “moral feeling”, which might be called conscience. And Cohen’s model does not refute that separate populations might develop antithetical codes for their “morality”. His model simply states that for evolutionary success, people learned to get along by doing mutually compatible things. Or at least not getting bashed.

But is the concept of “If you touch my wife, I’ll bash you!” really a moral precept? From the offender’s view point there are two possible points of perception:
(a) I shouldn’t touch his wife because he will hurt me;

(b) I shouldn’t touch his wife because it is wrong.
The first is entirely pragmatic, and could be circumvented when the wife is alone. The second is conscience based, and works under all conditions. Is it likely that (a) will evolve into (b)? No, because evolutionary theory demands the perpetuation of one’s own genetics over all other activities. Perception (a) is the only possible result of the theory of evolution. The concept of “wrongness” could not have evolved, under the definition of survival of the fittest. Just as the existence of selflessness falsifies Darwinian evolution, so it falsifies Cohen’s evolutionary theory of morality, “Evolving Morality” is seen to be another evolutionary crutch for propping up Atheism.

But the most damage to Cohen’s “Evolving Morality” is done by asking who benefits from ethics and morality. It is not the fittest, the strongest. And it is not enough to say that the entire group benefits, because the benefit is not equally realized. It is the weakest, the least fit who benefit the most and are protected from the stronger and more fit. This is directly counter to Darwinist evolution.

The Fittest as an Ethic?
The single moral premise that appears universal to Atheists might be “survival of the fittest”, the main conclusion of the Darwinists. As a moral premise, this suggests that anything that advances the race/species is acceptable. More simply put, “anything that benefits me is acceptable”, which would equate to amorality.

This is compounded by the statements and beliefs of Atheists such as Aldous Huxley, Julian Huxley, Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolph Hitler, Josef Stalin, Chairman Mao, Fidel Castro, etc, that Atheism is the freedom from all moral constraint. In fact “freedom from all constraint” is a main attraction factor in accepting Atheism. So morality (or amorality) is a prickly subject indeed for the Atheist, who might subconsciously realize the disingenuous nature of claiming to be moral.

Behaving Like an Atheist?
If an Atheist is behaving like an Atheist, how is he behaving? Like a Christian? Like a Buddhist? Hindu? Can a person legitimately claim both Atheism and the morality of, say, Judeo-Christianity? Shouldn’t an Atheist behave exactly as if there is no deity?

Note 1. This essay was written earlier and published on the accompanying website.

27 comments:

JazzyJ said...

Excellent post.

Anonymous said...

You are drawing a very long bow there. It's a pity you don't analyse your own claims.

So somebody who believes that no gods exist must be religious?

Re "Natural essence" ... orthogonal viewpoints. A person can be spiritual and still deny the existence of gods.

Re "Intuitive essence" ... specious nonsense.

Re "Spiritual essence" ... see "Natural essence"

Re "Stories" ... Atheism != Evolution.

Re "Statement of Faith" ... many straw men.

The rest is hardly worth commenting on, it gets so many things wrong.

You still haven't got over the hurdle that you can't prove any God exists, have you?

sonic said...

Atheism existed before a theory of evolution and the 'multiverse' so I'm not sure that what you say there is applicable to all Atheists.
On the other hand, it is clear that what you say is applicable to some (perhaps most).

Does the faith that the truth is expressible in a logically coherent way be a religion? (or tenet thereof?)

Stan said...

Anonymous said, (ignoring the insults which are intellectual fallacies):

” So somebody who believes that no gods exist must be religious?”

A belief without material evidence of its validity meets the definition of a religious faith. Atheists use that defintion all the time. Their demurral from accepting that definition for their own assertions is contradictory and non-rational.

” Re "Natural essence" ... orthogonal viewpoints. A person can be spiritual and still deny the existence of gods.”

This comment has nothing to do with Natural Essence. Maybe you were referring to something else?

”Re ‘Spiritual essence’ ... see ‘Natural essence’"

Most Atheists that I deal with are Materialists who reject the existence of any part of the human that is not material; hence, no spirit or spiritual essence. Almost all modern philosophy is of this mind. Your comment apparently refers to people who believe in spirits but not in gods; those people generally have deified either the earth or nature (Gaia), or themselves ("We are all gods"). They are not categorizable in general as Atheists. Perhaps there are some who fall into your categories. Those are not the irascible, evengelical Atheists to which I am referring.

”Re "Stories" ... Atheism != Evolution. "

For the last 150 years evolution and Atheism have been complementary and almost inseparable. Evolution is declared far and wide as the rational elimination of the need for God as creator. Denying that this is the case is denying the obvious. Of course it is possible to be an Atheist without knowledge of evolution, just as it is possible to accept evolution as well as God. But legions have adopted Atheism as a result of evolution's teachings, and refer to it continually. While evolution is not necessary for Atheism, it is sufficient, taken by itself. Evolution, by itself, forms the basis in science, it is said, for Atheist concepts of origin of life, meaning of life, and destination (teleology). It is a compact, scientistic Atheology.

”Re "Statement of Faith" ... many straw men. "

Declaring strawmen without specifics is an empty allegation. This statement has no intellectual value.

”The rest is hardly worth commenting on, it gets so many things wrong. "

This statement also has no intellectual value.

”You still haven't got over the hurdle that you can't prove any God exists, have
you? "


The evidence exists and is as strong as the evidence for evolution, i.e. it is inferential. The materialist need for a material proof of a non-material existence is a logical fallacy, one that I got over a long time ago. Materialism (scientism) cannot answer the most basic questions of all, such as "why is there anything, when it is more parsimonious that there be nothing at all?", and other such origins questions. Nor can it answer questions concerning the mind, without serious, obliterative reductionism.

If you have serious issues or questions concerning Atheism, Materialism or religion in general, please feel free to state them here for discussion.

Stan said...

Sonic said,
"Does the faith that the truth is expressible in a logically coherent way be a religion? (or tenet thereof?)"

In one reductive sense, solipsism, we have to take it on faith that we are not "brains in a vat", and that everything we experience through our senses even exists.

If we accept (by faith I suppose) that a macro-reality does exist as we experience it, including the universe and its characteristics, then it does not seem necessary to take more than that on faith. The consistent behavior of the universe and its constituents is the basis for the First Principles and for logic and rational thought.... and the derivative of that is empirical science.

So it does not appear to me that accepting the observed universal principles and rationality is the basis for a faith, especially since it is based on observation.

It can be made into a faith (Materialism), and it can be part of a faith (original Pauline Christianity).

An interesting question, thanks!

Martin said...

For the last 150 years evolution and Atheism have been complementary and almost inseparable.

But it's a one way street. Evolution is not indictable because atheists use it (badly) to support their worldview. There is nothing in evolution that supports atheism anymore than there is in special relativity.

Anonymous said...

Stan you didnt know all atheism is, is just a "lack of belief" in God?

Stan said...

Martin said,
"Evolution is not indictable because atheists use it (badly) to support their worldview."

Actually it is the scientism that is heavily attached to evolutionary theory that is indictable. It is difficult (although not impossible) to sort out the two, especially since many of the adherents to the one also adhere to the other.

Stan said...

Anonymous said,
"Stan you didnt know all atheism is, is just a "lack of belief" in God?"

Actually that is not the case. Lack of belief might refer to agnosticism, but it does not refer to Atheism, regardless of how much Atheists claim that it does.

The claim of "lack of belief" is a subterfuge that is so transparent it is difficult to understand why mature Atheists would use it. Atheists have a belief: they believe firmly that there is no god. They affirm this belief constantly.

Atheists are not known to claim that, on the issue of a deity, they just pull up a blank: no opinion. To claim that they do is false, it is an intentional falsehood, it is transparent as empty space.

Atheists have an opinion: there positively is no God.

What Atheists do not have is a desire to face the consequences of their belief - so they deny it with the subterfuge that they don't actually believe what they really do believe and say they believe in their arguments.

The consequence of their actual belief, if acknowledged, is that Atheists cannot defend their belief with material evidence. Therefore, they they are engaging in a religious belief system, using their own rules for defining religious belief systems. This removes Atheism from the boundaries of Materialist rational thought, even while claiming ratioality: a self-refuting paradox.

The denial of a positive belief is false, the intent is fraud, the consequence is that Atheists are hypocritical in taking such a blatantly false and dishonest position - especially after using the same argument (non-rational belief systems) against others.

It's past time for Atheists to adopt intellectual honesty in both thinking and statements.

Anonymous said...

Stan,

Re: belief that no gods exist

You wrote: "A belief without material evidence of its validity meets the definition of a religious faith."

But that's not atheism you are referring to here. If we look at the weak and strong claims:

#1 "lack of belief in any god", this cannot be a religious faith because it is an assertion that faith does not exist. Newborn babies fit into this category; do they have religious faith?

Assuming your assertion is true leads to a ridiculous conclusion. There's an infinite number of things about which all of us lack belief - for example, that there's an alien with 8 eyes living on a planet orbiting the star Tau Ceti. Your assertion would lead us to the conclusion that all of us have religious faith in an infinite number of things, and that's absurd.

#2 claim that "no gods exist" is based on evidence that no claim attributed to a god by mankind has ever been validated. Prayer doesn't work. Claims from the Bible are shown to be wrong. Different religious faiths make contradictory claims. They can't all be true, ergo one or more of them must be false. The problem of theodicy is a killer for an all-loving, all powerful god. There is no evidence of Jehovah, Zeus, Mithra, FSM. Religious faiths do not make logical sense - why must Jews wear tzitzit? Why must Muslims pray facing Mecca? We know Adam didn't exist, so Original Sin is also an invention. And so on, and so on.

Anonymous said...

The reason you draw such a long bow is that you define religion as inclusively as you can, and then you make many assumptions about atheists and atheisms to fit into your bloated definition of religion.

dictionary.reference.com defines religion as "1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

There are other numbered points below that but they mostly do not characterise a different kind of religion; they mostly refer to behaviour of the kind described in point #1.

There is point #6 which describes a different kind: "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience" ... but that's not what you're talking about in your article. You are talking about god-bothering religion and trying to fit atheism into that mold.

You make many sweeping claims:

"the Atheist accepts the First Principles of existence and truth"

"the Atheist affirms the existence of intuition"

"Atheism will specifically deny any spiritual essence"

"It is the Atheist’s ABSOLUTE Truth"

"Atheism therefore sees absolutely no purpose to life beyond the perpetuation of one’s own genes"

Please provide your evidence for any of these claims (your choice).

Later on in your comment you wrote, "Most Atheists that I deal with are Materialists" and "Those are not the irascible, evengelical Atheists to which I am referring.". So your article applies to only some atheists and not all atheists. So you have a problem not with the atheist conclusion that "no gods exist" rather the irascible and evangelical behaviour.

You wrote, "Evolution is declared far and wide as the rational elimination of the need for God as creator.". For Special Creation of mankind, yes. There's abundant evidence that we weren't magicked into existence by Jehovah as Adam and Eve, but rather evolved from a common ancestor. Evolution as you should know, does not speak to the origin of life (abiogenesis) and so you can put your god into that gap if you wish; Evolution won't argue against it. There may be other sciences which do, though. Evolution however, puts the lie to the biblical Genesis story, and it's not evolution's fault if that shakes the foundations of the cult of Jehovah to its core.

I think you should understand that Evolution is empirically true: we have mountains of evidence; we've observed it in the laboratory and in the field; it predicts things which we've later found to be true (or to exist, such as Tiktaalik).

At this point you seem to be arguing against your own point, as you wrote "Of course it is possible to be an Atheist without knowledge of evolution" which contradicts your article point about "The dogma of Evolution" as a statement of faith but I guess it comes back to what I wrote earlier: your article is only about irascible and evangelical atheists.

Anonymous said...

I have to split this into two; Google refuses such a long comment.

The reason you draw such a long bow is that you define religion as inclusively as you can, and then you make many assumptions about atheists and atheisms to fit into your bloated definition of religion.

dictionary.reference.com defines religion as "1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

There are other numbered points below that but they mostly do not characterise a different kind of religion; they mostly refer to behaviour of the kind described in point #1.

There is point #6 which describes a different kind: "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience" ... but that's not what you're talking about in your article. You are talking about god-bothering religion and trying to fit atheism into that mold.

You make many sweeping claims:

"the Atheist accepts the First Principles of existence and truth"

"the Atheist affirms the existence of intuition"

"Atheism will specifically deny any spiritual essence"

"It is the Atheist’s ABSOLUTE Truth"

"Atheism therefore sees absolutely no purpose to life beyond the perpetuation of one’s own genes"

Please provide your evidence for any of these claims (your choice).

Later on in your comment you wrote, "Most Atheists that I deal with are Materialists" and "Those are not the irascible, evengelical Atheists to which I am referring.". So your article applies to only some atheists and not all atheists. So you have a problem not with the atheist conclusion that "no gods exist" rather the irascible and evangelical behaviour.

Anonymous said...

Part 2.

You wrote, "Evolution is declared far and wide as the rational elimination of the need for God as creator.". For Special Creation of mankind, yes. There's abundant evidence that we weren't magicked into existence by Jehovah as Adam and Eve, but rather evolved from a common ancestor. Evolution as you should know, does not speak to the origin of life (abiogenesis) and so you can put your god into that gap if you wish; Evolution won't argue against it. There may be other sciences which do, though. Evolution however, puts the lie to the biblical Genesis story, and it's not evolution's fault if that shakes the foundations of the cult of Jehovah to its core.

I think you should understand that Evolution is empirically true: we have mountains of evidence; we've observed it in the laboratory and in the field; it predicts things which we've later found to be true (or to exist, such as Tiktaalik).

At this point you seem to be arguing against your own point, as you wrote "Of course it is possible to be an Atheist without knowledge of evolution" which contradicts your article point about "The dogma of Evolution" as a statement of faith but I guess it comes back to what I wrote earlier: your article is only about irascible and evangelical atheists.

Stan said...

Anonymous, welcome to the discussion. Why not adopt a moniker so that I know I am responding to the same individual each time?

#2 claim that "no gods exist" is based on evidence that no claim attributed to a god by mankind has ever been validated.

Materially, only.

"Prayer doesn't work."

Yes, it does. Studies mentioned under the “Prayer” category at the right have shown that prayer even works for animals, as well as for humans. However, the understanding of the efficacy of prayer does not hinge on studies, nor is prayer the coin to be put into the God machine for a goody in return. Prayer is intended to develop a relationship. Failure to develop a relationship does not indicate that others have failed.

"Claims from the Bible are shown to be wrong."

The Bible is largely metaphorical; also lyrical, poetic, historical in some cases. It was written by humans. That has no bearing on the existence of a rational First Cause. Much of the history in the bible has proven correct, and the bible is used by archeologists even today.

"Different religious faiths make contradictory claims. They can't all be true, ergo one or more of them must be false."

Yes. Probably all of them are false, some more false than others. That still has no bearing on the existence of a rational First Cause.

"The problem of theodicy is a killer for an all-loving, all powerful god."

Actually there are many theodicies. You are likely referring to the issue of “omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence”, a trumped up issue concerning beliefs about the deity that are not really descriptive of the reality concerning a First Cause type of deity. If a deity is first and foremost coherent, then the O, O, and O are to be tempered by coherence, a factor not accepted in atheologies attacking them. Same goes for justice, which also would temper. And for the inability of 3 dimensional creatures to comprehend many dimensional or non-dimensional beings. The attacks you mention are attacks on a reductive understanding of the being, which we must acknowledge our inability to understand. Loss of the 3-O's as absolutes is not the catastrophe that Atheists imagine it to be.

(continued)

Stan said...

(continued from above)
"There is no evidence of Jehovah, Zeus, Mithra, FSM."

Not all evidence is material, even in courtrooms. Your denial of evidence is a case of a blanket denial of things you cannot know. And the inclusion of JHVH with the others is an exercise in Guilt By Association, a logic fallacy. Your attack is on the First Cause; why not stick to the issue?

"Religious faiths do not make logical sense - why must Jews wear tzitzit? Why must Muslims pray facing Mecca?"

You are conflating religious artifacts with the existence of a rational First Cause of the universe. It is fine to be skeptical of human ecclesiasticism, but it is an error to confuse that with the existence of a First Cause.

Many customs don't make sense. What is the purpose of wearing a piece of cloth around your neck if you wear a "suit"?

"We know Adam didn't exist, so Original Sin is also an invention."

Oddly, evolutionists seem to insist on genetically tracing the common "mother" of mankind, a woman who existed X millenia ago.

Original sin is a description of human fallibility, possibly described metaphorically. It says nothing about the existence of a deity.

"The reason you draw such a long bow is that you define religion as inclusively as you can, and then you make many assumptions about atheists and atheisms to fit into your bloated definition of religion."

Yes, I did use the inclusive definition on purpose. If I had not, I would have been in error, and would have been called on it. To use a limited definition of religion would have been a prejudicial means of finding a definition that fit Atheism. I did not do that nor was it necessary. The inclusive definition provides a large number of fits for Atheism, in a large number of categories. There is no bias used and none is necessary. Atheism fits.

Stan said...

"You make many sweeping claims: & Please provide your evidence for any of these claims (your choice)."

Certainly.
First, "the Atheist accepts the First Principles of existence and truth".

Atheists claim to value rationality over faith. In order to be rational, one accepts the First Principles (whether one knows it or not). Rejecting the First Principles, as did Nietzsche, leads to irrationality or, in Nietzsche’s case Anti-rationalism.

Second. However, the First Principles cannot be proven experimentally, empirically. They are known to be valid intuitively. So in order to accept the validity of the First Principles, the Atheist is de facto accepting that intuition is a valid source of knowledge. This comes as a surprise to most Atheists who have not thought through the underlying foundational basis for rationality, logic, mathematics, etc.

Third. Since most Atheists accept Philosophical Materialism as we discussed above, all existence must be material, so any spirituality is denied since spirituality is metaphysical and outside the Material realm.

Fourth. Evolution is called a settled science, despite being inferential in nature. So it is an absolute truth within Atheism, which is a belief system without truths, except for these two absolutes: (a) there is no deity; (b) evolution is true.

Fifth. Atheism is non-teleological, especially when held in concert with evolution. There is no reason that we are here, so there is no purpose for our existence, beyond perpetuation of one’s gene set. Moralities are fabricated by human minds and are intended to work for the same thing.

I should not have referred to the irascibility of Atheists. I am referring to Atheists, period.

"Evolution as you should know, does not speak to the origin of life (abiogenesis) and so you can put your god into that gap if you wish;"

The pointed non-acceptance of abiogenesis as part and parcel of the theory of common descent, Materialism style, is another purposeful obfuscation, (transparently false) because the probability is so heavily weighted against it (If probability were in favor of abiogenesis, the evolutionists would crow loudly about it).

The Jehova "cult" as you rudely call it is not dependent upon the metaphors in the Bible to be validated empirically.

"I think you should understand that Evolution is empirically true: we have mountains of evidence; we've observed it in the laboratory and in the field; it predicts things which we've later found to be true (or to exist, such as Tiktaalik)."

Evolution is not empirically true, nor can it be included in the philosophy of empirical science...which never produces truth, by the way, it produces contingent factoids which are subject to change. Evolution is the soft side of biology, which in no way depends on evolution to inform its advances; rather it fits evolution into its findings. Before we repeat too much of previous conversations here, you might want to read the “Challenge to Evolutionists” on the left side panel, it will save us time in getting to the real issues. The standard claim which you repeat, “mountain of evidence”, refers to a mountain of inferred connections between sets of bones. This inferential mountain is in no way comparable to empirical, experimental, falsifiable science. It was rightly called a pile of “just so stories” by Stephen J Gould, and acknowledged by Dawkins who immediately went into probability obscurancy justification rather than claim it “True”.

"Of course it is possible to be an Atheist without knowledge of evolution"

It is possible for a person born in, say, upstate Myanmar, to reject the idea of deity with no prior knowledge of evolution. That says nothing about the value of evolution for informing modern day Atheists.

Anon, I hope you stick around, these conversations are interesting to me.

Martin said...

The Bible is largely metaphorical; also lyrical, poetic, historical in some cases. It was written by humans.

This needs to be emphasized. Many atheists I know are that way because they perceive fundamentalism and Biblical literalism as the voice of Christianity, and hence a debunking of those (they think) is a debunking of the more general metaphysical principles of a first cause.

Take away the more extreme versions of Christianity, and atheists don't much of an argument.

Original sin is a description of human fallibility, possibly described metaphorically.

And also, this needs to be emphasized. One possible way of thinking about Original Sin can be seen by considering the "free will" answer to the problem of evil. If God cannot logically create a world where he forces people to freely choose good (a contradiction), then we are left with two possible choices:

1. A world where God gives humans free will, they choose to do evil sometimes, and hence evil exists

2. A world where God gives humans free will, they never choose to do evil, and hence evil does not exist.

The "Garden of Eden" is World 2. The "Fall of Man" is World 1.

I.e., the Fall is not a singular event, but a description of the way things are vs the way they could be.

Stan said...

Martin,
Well put!

Anonymous said...

Just thought I would mention this, original sin is different from the Eastern Orthodox Church point of view, they reject Augustine's doctrine of original sin.

Stan said...

I suspect that the EOC acknowledges the fallibility of man though.

sonic said...

Four points-
1) Historically the evidence for god was the existence of the universe. It is with science that we get the notion that mass-energy cannot be created or destroyed. That is to say there isn't a natural law that would account for the existence of the universe.
Hawking has attempted to describe the existing science to account for the existence of the universe, but has failed because he relies on a nonexistent 'theory of everything'.
Of course if you want to claim that mass-energy can be created, by all means demonstrate-- (I'm pretty sure you could make a perpetual motion machine if you could summon matter)

2) Atheists attack the current state of religious understanding, believing that religions don't change. But man's understanding of the nature of god (assuming the existence thereof) has changed over time. So has man's understanding of plants, water, man, the sun,… So it seems we have more to learn about god and his (its) nature.

3) There is less positive evidence for evolution than there is positive evidence for astrology (after all, astrologers have made millions of correct predictions every day for hundreds of years).

4) Martin, your description is fantastic- thank-you.

sonic said...

Oh, regarding point 3 above, we might want to consider this--

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7315/full/nature09352.html

"Our work provides a new perspective on the genetic basis of adaptation.  Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.  This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for ~600 generations.  Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments."

35 years later, no evolution.

Imagine an experiment testing Einstein's general relativity coming to such a conclusion. Would they still be talking about all the positive evidence?

elronxenu said...

Sonic - "It is with science that we get the notion that mass-energy cannot be created or destroyed. That is to say there isn't a natural law that would account for the existence of the universe."

You misunderstand. Gravity has negative energy, and so the total mass-energy of the universe is zero. We see mass-energy being created and destroyed all the time through virtual particles. Space can never be totally empty.

"Atheists attack the current state of religious understanding, believing that religions don't change. But man's understanding of the nature of god (assuming the existence thereof) has changed over time. So has man's understanding of plants, water, man, the sun,… So it seems we have more to learn about god and his (its) nature."

If that were true then we would see religions converging on questions of doctrine, nature of god and so on. That doesn't happen. What we observe is schisms - the protestants split off from the catholics, the mormons split off from somebody else. We see hundreds of denominations - anglican, methodist, protestant, presybterian, jehovahs witnesses, baptist, orthodox, unitarian, do I need to go on?

Science converges on consensus answers to important questions like how do objects move, how did life evolve, how does the brain work, what causes thunderstorms, etc. etc. Religion on the other hand diverges, its answers coming from wishful thinking and astounding quantities of conclusions drawn from supposition about the nature of the deity.

elronxenu said...

Continuing previous comment ... Sonic wrote "There is less positive evidence for evolution than there is positive evidence for astrology (after all, astrologers have made millions of correct predictions every day for hundreds of years)"

Do you really believe that? It's a false premise - astrologers may well make many correct predictions, but they make many more incorrect predictions, and furthermore different astrologers make incompatible wrong predictions. "Count of number of predictions got right" is not by itself a measure of quality of anything. "Count of percent of correct predictions" is more useful, so long as the number of predictions made is not trivial.

Stan loves to use logic to demolish assertions, well _that_ is extremely faulty logic you are using, Sonic.

elronxenu said...

Sonic - re the Nature article.

All this paper is doing, as far as I can see, is establishing further evidence for the rate at which genetic mutations occur. The paper does not conclude "no evolution" and you are wrong to conclude "no evolution" from such a small amount of data.

Richard Lenski put bacteria through 35,000 generations of selective pressure and he found an unconditionally advantageous adaptation (if I remember correctly, derived from 4 independent mutations).

I will defer to somebody who knows a lot more about biology than I do, and they wrote about it here:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/a-flys-life-adventures-in-experimental-evolution/

I quote: "If a trait is heritable, and you select offspring deviated away from the mean, over time you will see a shift in the trait value. This is classic quantitative genetics, and that’s what they saw. They had five lineages which exhibited accelerated development (ACO), and five which were controls which exhibited the ancestral phenotypes (CO)."

No scientist concludes "no evolution" from this paper.

As for Einstein, his theories made many predictions, some of which were untestable until after he died. But guess what, they all checked out: none of them were wrong (unlike your astrologers). I think the only prediction we still haven't been able to confirm is gravity waves. If they exist, then they are _extremely_ subtle; if we still can't detect them beyond reasonable bounds implied by his theory then all the physicists will cheer because it will be evidence for new physics. It won't make Einstein wrong; we all know that his theory is an incomplete description of the natural world, but it's a very good fit to nature within large boundaries of size, speed and energy.

Stan said...

Elronxenu said,

”Science converges…. Religion diverges”

”Religion on the other hand diverges, its answers coming from wishful thinking and astounding quantities of conclusions drawn from supposition about the nature of the deity.”

The term, “Religion”, is too all-inclusive for a decent analysis of this position. Christianity has believers and theologians (among other categories). I suspect that if one were to check the necessary and sufficient theological positions of the various Protestant theologians, that the fundamental positions are not that different. Where the differences lie is in non-essential but bitterly disputed interpretations of various ecclesiastical concepts that are not related to the existence of a deity, or so I suspect without any data for support.

On the other hand, science converges, except when it is overthrown completely.

The converging/diverging argument is unconvincing in the sense that judeo-christian theological necessary and sufficient principles have not changed nearly as much as has scientific understanding of reality over the past millennia. Nor are they likely to change as much as scientific understanding of new quantum and biological connections are revised in the not-distant future.

Disagreements on the refinements of understanding exist in both venues, and do not discredit either one. And both have dogmatic believers as well as thoughtful philosophers.

sonic said...

elronxenu-

Regarding the physics--
I shouldn't have mentioned Hawking.
We have this-
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1035v1
and this-
http://www.astrosociety.org/pubs/mercury/31_02/nothing.html
both of which might have an impact on the discussion (and both of which are somewhat controversial-- atlthough I'll give them as true for purpose of discussion).

So we change the discussion from what could produce mass-energy to what could begin space-time or what caused the first quantum fluctuation or what caused inflation to begin or… (Problem of first cause is not solved)

Regarding man's changing understanding of god-
your examples of schism make my point- the ideas change and what is attacked is the current understanding/manifestations.

Regarding the statement about astrology- you are correct, they make and continue to make millions of correct predictions daily. But that is not the whole story, is it?

Regarding the experiment and evolution-You are correct- my statement 'no evolution' is too broad. More accurate would be (from the article you sent--thanks!)-
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/a-flys-life-adventures-in-experimental-evolution/
"Clearly this study did not find the clean hard sweeps which theory may have predicted."
If the theory makes predictions that differ from the observed evidence, then we must change the theory. But how much? Given the author's seeming belief in the existence of a 'tree of life', I would suggest that he might mis-estimate the appropriate amounts and types of changes.
I don't know, I'm pretty sure that statements of the positive evidence for the theory will not be whole story, however- which was the bigger point.