The False Dichotomy offers two options which are diametrically opposed and which seem to be all the choices that are available, both of which are uncomfortable. But with two options, say P and Q, there are actually four ways to choose: P and Q; P and not Q; Q and not P; not P and not Q.
The deception which philosophers and other manipulators use is to present only two of the four possible choices. For P and Q, then, only the choices P and not Q, and Q and not P are presented as the available choices.
This then is the deception in Plato’s Euthyphro Dilemma, which Jerry Coyne takes as the "logical" basis for dismissing a deity, disregarding the False Dichotomy Fallacy that his logic is based upon. Coyne is trying to make the case that Atheists are Good while God is Bad, which is the new argument being made by Atheists who are attacking the modern civilization in which they live.
Moving to Evil God, Coyne maintains that the Old Testament God did all sorts of things that he, Coyne, and the Atheists think are bad. Now God did order some things done that only a deity could justify, no argument there. But if a deity is justified in doing what ever a deity does, then Coyne has no case other than his own pique. Says Coyne:
” Now, few of us see genocide or stoning as moral, so Christians and Jews pass over those parts of the Bible with judicious silence. But that's just the point. There is something else — some other source of morality — that supersedes biblical commands. When religious people pick and choose their morality from Scripture, they clearly do so based on extrareligious notions of what's moral.”
What the Bible displays is a continuous cycling of obedience, betrayal, and correction. The correction is purposely visited upon a disobedient society by the use of an invading force which brings humility where hubris and contempt had reigned. And this after explicit warnings of what was to come. If one assumes these to be literally true, which Atheists always do, it is clearly the deity’s prerogative to handle his creation as he wishes. But this action, being that of the diety, is neither moral nor immoral in terms of human behavior. By taking on the Bible, Coyne should be obligated to at least understand its meanings and to use a meaningful model to criticize rather than his own fake model. Morality in human terms, according to the Bible, means obedience to the directives given by the deity. Now Coyne might not like the directives, and he might be tempted to compare the specific directives for action to the general directives for daily behavior and then declare his False Dichotomy. But as a declared intellectual he should act in dispassionate fairness when he passes judgment, rather than present False Dichotomies and Straw Man arguments. He does not, however, do that.
This is total blindness to the concept of a deity which is actually more powerful than Coyne is himself. Morality doesn’t come from the daily maunderings of institutional intellectuals; if it even exists it comes from an extrahuman source. The morals of intellectuals have never been consistent, and much less when put into practice have they been humane. Coyne’s argument against God and for Atheist Goodness cannot withstand the most cursory historical glance at the 20th century. Ah, say Atheists, that was coincidentally Atheists slaughtering hundreds of millions of their own countrymen, purely coincidence. In other words, excusing their own belief system for its slaughters.
But as fatally feeble as those arguments are, Coyne’s weakest argument is yet to come:
” Further, the idea that morality is divinely inspired doesn't jibe with the fact that religiously based ethics have changed profoundly over time. Slavery was once defended by churches on scriptural grounds; now it's seen as grossly immoral. Mormons barred blacks from the priesthood, also on religious grounds, until church leaders had a convenient "revelation" to the contrary in 1978. Catholics once had a list of books considered immoral to read; they did away with that in 1966. Did these adjustments occur because God changed His mind? No, they came from secular improvements in morality that forced religion to clean up its act.”Religious people continue to improve or at least change their understanding of the deity and its wishes for them. Coyne conveniently ignores that it was the religious efforts of uberChristian William Wilberforce in Great Britain, and the Republicans in the USA that put slavery away – not the force of “secular improvements”. Taking credit for what one did not accomplish is intellectually dishonest, and none of the events he listed was forced by any secular superhero.
Coyne predictably defaults to the Atheist’s religious source, evolution:
” So where does morality come from, if not from God? Two places: evolution and secular reasoning. Despite the notion that beasts behave bestially, scientists studying our primate relatives, such as chimpanzees, see evolutionary rudiments of morality: behaviors that look for all the world like altruism, sympathy, moral disapproval, sharing — even notions of fairness. This is exactly what we'd expect if human morality, like many other behaviors, is built partly on the genes of our ancestors.”First the absurdity of asserting that “secular reasoning” and Chimpanzee behavior are in the same category as morality is absolutely glaring. But let’s take evolution first: making up evolutionary Just So Stories just doesn’t cut it any more, but Coyne hasn’t gotten the memo. I’m sure he will some day.
But “secular reasoning” as a source of anything meaningful at all is the most absurd premise that can be made. Secular reasoning eschews any absolutes, so it has to base its premise support either on infinite regressions of subpremises, or on circular regression back to itself. Either way it cannot provide any firm grounding for… well, for any valid thought whatsoever, much less a guide for moral human behavior. This is the world in which the secular philosopher moralists live, a world which they make up and then want us to believe is real. For them maybe it is real, but I doubt it, because they do not actually live in the world they pretend is real.
And that is a true dichotomy: to make up rules and reality and then either (a) to live in it, or (b) not to live in it. If one asserts rules and reality, but chooses (b), then he might be hypocritical or maybe insane.
An example is the idea that “compassion” must become a human trait if one is to be a secular moralist. But then the real idea comes to the fore: it is not compassion but confiscation of other people’s wealth to be spread around. The compassion comes not from personal sacrifice but from sacrificing the Other on the altar of secularism. Sacrificing the Other is a large part of secular thought, so it must be moral according to the seculars.
Anyone who values “secular thought” as a way toward morality is suspect. In fact, as Massimo Pigliucci recently demonstrated quite adequately, secular thought is compartmentalized into sects, each of which condemns the other secular thought sects as dealing in “mental masturbation”. They are partly right; it’s just that ALL secular thought is mental masturbation. And Coyne is right in the middle of all that. Why is Coyne “Good”? Because he says so. What is "Good"? It's whatever he says it is... today. That’s the process of secular thought.
In fact Coyne wrote a book with a title that automatically places the entire book into the mental masturbation category: Coyne wrote: “Why Evolution Is True”. Assuming that evolution is a science complete with verifiability and falsifiability and is proven to be valid, it still is not capable of providing Truth. Science provides only contingent inductive factoids, from which deductive tests can be made, which show merely that no falsification has yet occurred. No matter how many tests are done, science never ever provides Truth. Scientists might presume a factoid to be valid for purposes of subsequent tests, but they do not declare Truth if they understand the basis for science. As both a philosopher and a scientist, Coyne flunks even the basics.
But for some reason, Atheists still respect him. Maybe it’s because he says what they want to hear.
[author's note: semantic correction, 08.07.11]
22 comments:
Morality in human terms, according to the Bible, means obedience to the directives given by the deity.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities"
it is clearly the deity’s prerogative to handle his creation as he wishes.
By 'it is clearly' I assume you mean 'here comes an assertion that I can't back up'.
It's a pretty ugly assertion if you think about it. You believe life has no worth if your god says so. Genocide is moral because God ordered it. Sick stuff.
Coyne wrote: “Why Evolution Is True”. Assuming that evolution is a science complete with verifiability and falsifiability and is proven to be valid, it still is not capable of providing Truth.
Here is where I am talking about you and atheists talking past each other. Coyne is using the word "true" to mean: scientific hypothesis that has passed all of its tests.
I adhere to philosophical realism which is consistent with the philosophia perennis- the dominant intellectual tradition of the West starting from Plato and Aristotle and subsequently reinforced and enriched by Christianity .
My position is that there is a real order of being including a realm of objective values. Our acts of consciousness are always in contact with something outside of ourselves, and this "something other" is unaffected by the mind's awareness of it. This means that universal ideas really exist.
We use general propositions to describe resemblances among objects. These propositions embody universal truth. "A universal is something which is able to characterize a number of different particulars."
Whiteness, humanity, justice and triangularity are universals. A universal, not being an object experienced by sense perception, cannot be known entirely by sense experience.
Modern philosophy has tended to reject the reality of universals and to assert that all abstract ideas are, in fact, ideas of particular things ultimately derived from the senses. There is no "whiteness"; there are only white things.
But, if all knowledge is reducible to personal experience or sensation, there can be no moral or aesthetic value other than what seems valuable to each person based on what he feel at any given moment.(relativism)
In epistemology, the search for Truth implies a recognition that there is a real object of knowledge. Similarly, in moral philosophy, the very notion of obligation(what "ought" to be done) implies the existence of objective moral values; otherwise, there would be nothing to make conduct obligatory.
"The modern empirical tradition, which holds that all knowledge results from sense experience and that there is no other order of reality, has a devastating practical effect, since the values inherent in the moral order provide people with principles to live by."
- J.F Johnston Jr.
Fireworx said,
"It's a pretty ugly assertion if you think about it. You believe life has no worth if your god says so. Genocide is moral because God ordered it. Sick stuff."
The assertion is that life has meaning because God says so. If the individual or culture removes that meaning by denying the source of the meaning, then that individual or culture no longer has meaning. Removal of meaningless, but harmful elements (weeding out, as it were) is not a non-coherence in both the ability and the disgression of the creator of those elements (the gardener). It is Atheism that removes value from life.
Whether the biblical events actually happened is debatable. However, when Atheists pass judgments on the morals of a deity, it can't help but bring the chickens of reality home to roost: Most if not all Atheists approve of killing humans at certain stages which they decide in their own minds to be morally acceptable. Embryos are undeniably humans at a certain stage of development. No human reaches adulthood or even "personhood" without passing successfully through the embryo stage in order to be born. Abortion kills the embryos, and it is done now as wholesale industrialized slaughter. Embryos are innocent, but condemned to dismemberment by the hubris of humans. That is moral because Atheists say so. It is eugenics in action with Atheist approval and support; it is real. Sick stuff.
If one presumes that there is a God, then the judgment of the Atheist on the deity is of no value whatsoever. Humans have value solely because the deity says so. When Atheists reject the source of value then their lives have no value. They confirm this by trying to place variable values on the lives of other individuals.
If one presumes that there is no God, then humans have no value because they are accidents of evolution. Since humans have no value under Atheism, there is no constraint against abortive slaughter nor against genocide, other than the personal opinions of individual Atheists. Atheism is necessarily Consequentialist, even the “Value Ethic” strain; if a goal is defined to be “moral”, then any and all means to that goal are also moral. The Atheist cannot escape this because there is no objective, certain, common morality to prevent it. Evolutionary morality is just as malleable as individual daily selection of morality. For the Atheist it is inescapable: his morality is meaningless, except in its sickness.
Martin Said,
"Here is where I am talking about you and atheists talking past each other. Coyne is using the word "true" to mean: scientific hypothesis that has passed all of its tests."
Then that is what he should have said. But I doubt that is what he meant. When he said true, this is what he meant: having a truth value = 1.
LT Said,
"If they should be moral because they love God, what's wrong with atheists loving humanity and being moral?"
I presume that you are talking about Humanism, rather than Atheism. Atheism comes with no morals attached. Any morals that an Atheist claims to have are acquired from some something else, either by co-opting the cultural morality, or by "thinking" up one on their own. Humanism is one that was "thought up" on their own, and one that is directly opposed to human freedom, which is why I oppose it. Being moral, to an Atheist-Humanist means loving the concept of humanity while hating certain large segments of humans and not really associating with the remaining segments.
By this I mean that Humanists are devoted to stripping the possessions of those they designate as the evil "haves", and redistributing to the "have nots". All the while they do not associate with the have-nots, bringing them neither goods nor services: that, they contend, is the government's job, including abortion, which the mass murder of the class they claim to love.
Read the Humanist Manifestos, being certain to start with the original Manifesto, and then watch as they disguise the original, blatant description of their intent to seize all and every institution in order to reconstitute them in their own lights - into amorphous and foggy happy words that obscure their intents.
Atheism is Consequentialist; it is self-directed by those who are convinced of their own intellectual and moral superiority. These traits cannot be brought together under any rational meaning of the word "Good".
Moreover, Atheists do not love humanity; they love the idea of being a savior of humanity, in the sense of being the "messiah". They wish to reconstitute humanity into a utopian society of mindlessly unselfish, altruistic automatons (as one class), and themselves as the savior elite class. This is the idea they love, not humanity or humans.
So the Atheists are claiming morality because they claim to mostly stay out of prison on the one hand, and they have a grand messiah utopian plan on the other.
That's as close to morality that an Atheist can get. And it is not morality at all.
Ok, ignore my questions and write a rant about Communism or whatever the hell you are going on about.
This blog is about Atheism. I answered your question regarding Atheism. There are a great many other places to find answers regarding Christianity. Sorry you don't care for the answer. It still is the answer.
LT, Stan's style of Christian apologetics is to attack atheism. Since atheism is simple not believing in theism, Stan has to attack something so he attacks left wing politics and tries to lump atheism in with Communism.
There are no Christian apologetics on this blog. Atheism is a rejection of God theories, not of Christianity. Using Atheist logic, rejection of Christianity would be called A-Christianity.
Atheists these days claim only a lack of belief, attempting to disown their own rejection of that belief. That is the original dishonesty. Secondary dishonesties carry forth from that, because Atheism bears no morality. Any morality claims by Atheists are merely those which Atheists either think up, or "borrow" for convenience. Either way the morality is temporary and without any force.
The stated connection to Communism - actually a form of top down socialism - is your inference, and it is interesting that you see that connection between Atheist behaviors and that particular form of Leftism. The connection between Atheism and the Left is not 100%, but it is very tight because the Left offers a morality of personal superiority, which is attractive to those without a moral base. This superiority is seen in the language of the civility collapse of the last several weeks, when massive spending programs deemed moral by the Left were threatened.
There is no reason for a Christian to be moral. He can always gain forgiveness so why be good? Maybe there is another reason people are moral that has nothing to do with "Morality ... means obedience to the directives given by the deity." Why obey? Punishment? Some other reason? Why?
It looks like Christians have less reasons to be moral than non-Christians.
It's telling that Stan will not defend this own assertions. I don't think he can. But I can see his attraction to right-wing politics. Morality to Stan is obeying. It's authoritarian. It says "do what I say, don't ask why". "All those who do not obey will be punished." Almost the same message as Stan's right-wing masters.
If that is your understanding of Christianity, OK. It's not Biblical but one can read the Bible for whatever meaning one starts with and wants to find, presuming one is an Atheist to start with. It's doubtful that your understanding of Christianity comes from biblical study, though, because it is false.
What I wrote about the coherence of a deity and the non-coherence of Atheism still stands, untouched by charges of non-defense.
And your understanding of Libertarianism is also flawed. "Masters" presumes totalitarian big government, which is a Leftist objective. Or perhaps you were just replaying Leftist invective. Either way it is false. Or perhaps it just is a display of frustration at your unsuccessful logic in attempting to Tu Quoque Christians with false accusations, while unable to provide a case for Atheist morality.
Pretty much all your accusations are false, plus you have made no case for Atheist morality.
*There is no reason for a Christian to be moral. He can always gain forgiveness so why be good?*
Even if one knew that his wife would completely forgive him if he cheated on her, he has an incentive to not do so, because, if he loves her, he will want to avoid causing her pain. In the same way, Christians have a love relationship with God. If they transgress, they cause pain and disrupt the relationship--something they would wish to avoid, even though they know they will be forgiven.
This is what some people actually believe:
http://i.imgur.com/jpbQ8.gif
"There is no reason for a Christian to be moral. He can always gain forgiveness so why be good? Maybe there is another reason people are moral that has nothing to do with "Morality ... means obedience to the directives given by the deity." Why obey? Punishment? Some other reason? Why?"
One Atheist complains that a Christian is good only from fear of Divine punishment, while another Atheist complains that Christians DON'T have that motive!
And sometimes the same Atheist will use the one argument and then the other.
Do these people ever stop and listen to themselves?
Wow, it's like they are all individual people with their own opinions.
"Morality in human terms, according to the Bible, means obedience to the directives given by the deity."
There are many directives in the Bible that are no longer morals. The Bible says you can beat your slave to death because "he is your property".
(Yes, conditions do apply. Is the slave Hebrew? Did he live for a day after the beating? Exodus 21:20-21.)
Stan says "[r]eligious people continue to improve or at least change their understanding of the deity and its wishes for them." but I say it is not the understanding that is changing but society. It is no longer morally correct to beat your slaves to death or even have slaves. So religious people have to explain away their deity's commands and claim it is "new understanding".
Adam said,
"There are many directives in the Bible that are no longer morals. "
Those rules weren't morals in the first place, being civil laws. But regardless of that, Atheists never seem to refer to the New Covenant, as if it never existed and only the Old Testament, original Covenent exists for them. They are able to muster enough relativist moral indignation to deal with that. Their relativist morals are superior to God, but why? Based on what standard? There is no Atheist standard except for the Consequentialism that flows naturally from relativism. Relativism is, in fact, Consequentialist. And Consequentialism is in no way in conflict with the Old Testament.
So Atheist self-righteous moral rage at the Old Testament is merely a Consequentialist convenience for doing what they would anyway, reject God. But it is non-coherent, since the existence of a First Cause is in no way contingent on a literalist reading of the Bible.
It was a devout activist Christian, Wilberforce, who applied the New Covenant to the Christian worldview and fought slavery into extinction. Yes, some Christians (Democrats mostly) fought the concept both before and after the Civil War, clear up to the 1960's. But the understanding has changed, and the culture followed the understanding change. Except in the necessary rejectionism of the Atheist, where it is necessary for the Bible and God to be evil, in order to support their belief system.
Culture is the current set of beliefs and behaviors aggregate in a social group. It follows changes in beliefs and behaviors. It is not a driving force. Cultural change is driven by other forces.
Those rules weren't morals in the first place, being civil laws.
Oh and I thought you said morals were "directives given by the deity".
But the understanding has changed, and the culture followed the understanding change.
Sounds like relativism to me.
Except in the necessary rejectionism of the Atheist, where it is necessary for the Bible and God to be evil, in order to support their belief system.
Strange because I also lack belief in gods that would be good if they existed.
Yes, some Christians (Democrats mostly) fought the concept both before and after the Civil War,
Before the 1960's the Democratic Party was the conservative party. This changed with the Southern Strategy.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Southern_strategy
KK said,
"Oh and I thought you said morals were "directives given by the deity".
Surely you understand that while morals are directives, not all directives are morals.
"Sounds like relativism to me."
Do new understandings in mathematics make mathematics relativist?
"Strange because I also lack belief in gods that would be good if they existed."
If your reference is to specific entities, then your "lack of belief" is actually rejection. If your reference is to an abstraction, then you have rejected the abstraction.
But if your meaning is that you are open-minded about the claims in the Bible because you reject "good gods" too, then that is not credible, unless you are actually an agnostic of the type which is looking for more information. But that is also not credible, given the tone of your comments.
So, as far as I can tell, your comment about disbelief in good gods has no real bearing on the issue of general Atheist disbelief in the Bible, and in fact considering it evil.
not all directives are morals.
How do you tell the difference?
Do new understandings in mathematics make mathematics relativist?
Morality is not mathematics.
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