Tuesday, September 6, 2011

The Red Neck, Blue Collar Atheist

I’m sure that we have all wondered what it would look like if Atheism were promoted not by self-anointed intellectuals but rather it were promoted by a self-anointed red neck, blue collar huckster.  Now we can know for certain what that is like.

Hank Fox is a self-described “redneck blue collar Atheist” who has written a book, not surprisingly called, “Red Neck Blue Collar Atheist: Simple Thoughts About Reason, Gods, & Faith”.  He provides a convenient on-line sample of the book which is a chapter on morality and being good without God.  So let’s take a look.

Fox goes to lengths to create a fictional church, one which claims to contain all morality.  “Those people” Fox declares, think that absent the Church, morality doesn’t exist.
” To those people, no deliberate moral act could take place outside the Baptist Church, or, specifically, Pineview Baptist Church. “If there is no God, what keeps you from robbing and raping?” is really the speaker’s way of saying just that.”
This model, he strongly asserts in a large and BOLDED sidebar, is ”widespread and extremely persistent”.   His evidence for this is merely his assertion that it is so; it’s a model, you see, but it is also TRUE, at least for Fox.

He tests this model of morality, “model 1”, with the assertion that (a) it is moral to open the doors for old people, and (b) you can “just know that”.  So morality is not contained in the church, at least if opening doors for the elderly is the epitome of morality – and it is declared so, as Fox uses it.  I.e. Church ≠ morality.

For Fox, this disqualifies model 1, QED.  But his evidence is still merely his assertion;  does morality really extend to opening doors for others?  If it does, who said so, and what gives them the right, the moral authority to declare that it is so?  Fox takes the moral authority upon himself, without explanation of his assumption of moral authority, and without apology. 

But let’s go back a bit and assess Fox’s position on understanding theology:

” The “theologian” business, the idea that you have to become an expert on the Bible to argue with Christians, that’s always bothered me too. As a freethinker, the LAST thing I want to do is spend huge amounts of time studying THEIR holy book. There’s a whole universe of other stuff I’d rather be working to understand, or enjoying.”

We, therefore, need to grant him his ignorance when he addresses the things he rejects?  Including his ignorance that the term “theologian” is not exclusive to Christianity, we can suppose.  One of the overarching characteristics of “red neck, blue collar” –ism, is that it is proud, PROUD, of its ignorance and stands tall to defend the right to be ignorant.  Of course, the RNBC’s do have that right; but it does not mean that they ARE right.  What Fox seems to be promoting is that within his bubble of ignorance there blooms a bud of wisdom regarding the objects of his ignorance.  But we can legitimately ask, how likely is that?  But maybe he has a case; we proceed with that hope.

Back to his original model, model 1, we can show conclusively that Fox does not know how pervasive such an attitude is despite his claim that he does.  If he had a poll that demonstrated these “facts”, he would have shown it for support.  Claims to know the universal thoughts and thought processes of humans, especially humans as numerous and diverse as Christians, can only be false.

 This model was a Fox-specific straw-man construction, a cartoon, based on his admitted ignorance of what constitutes the basis for a theological moral base.  It is common for Atheists to construct erroneous views of theology out of pure ignorance (with a little meanness thrown in, as we will get to in a bit).  There is no need, they suppose, to understand the actual premises; they can create false arguments for a supposed theology, and feel quite brilliant as they knock down their own false assumptions.

Fox continues to claim that opening doors for the elderly, being a moral act, can be moral in many religions and in Atheism.  He lays out a second model, model 2:
” In Model 2, religion itself, some kind of devout faith, is the real deal, the true source of morality.”
His effort here is to attach a selfishness to an ill-defined model, and he does it with a very clumsy attachment.  The assertion is composed of mixed thoughts: If religion is the source of morality, then no one outside the religion can perform moral acts, and the religion is selfish in claiming sole rights to morality.  The confusion of source with actor muddles this to the point of nonsense: the source does not prevent actions outside the circle of membership and to claim that it does is nonsensical.  The red neck equivalent would be something like this: If universities are a source of rational thought, then no one without a university degree can have rational thoughts.  In other words, the model and its conclusion reduce immediately to absurdity.

Undeterred, Fox forges ahead with another moral model.  This third one is two-part.  First, there is “no causal connection” between religion and morality.  Second, religion has no claim to morality at all:
” In fact, the only link between the two is the shaky one that religious people deliberately make in an attempt to make their religion seem necessary – the hijacking of morality by the members of Pineview Baptist Church, along with the pompous crowing that only they are blessed with a moral code.”

He goes on:
” The fact that the boxes of Religion and Morality are separate does not mean that PBC members can’t be extremely moral people. It does mean that moral people do not have to belong to PBC, or Judeo-Christian-Islamic Hootenanny, or any religion.



PBC members are not moral because they’re PBC members. JCIH believers are not moral because they’re JCIH believers. Neither are moral people somehow automatically PBC or JCIH members without knowing it.



People are moral because they care enough to make an effort to be good. Period.”
Fox has now declared his version of morality, but through the haze of the word "good".  He is correct in saying that membership does not make one moral.  But no one except himself is making that point, and he makes it in a straw man model made up just to prove this point (which again, no one else is making).
Fox had already attacked the Ten Commandments.  Perhaps he will share with us exactly what “good” means, and what is and is not good.  Even better, perhaps he will share with us exactly what the source of his moral certainty is and what constitutes the authority for making that moral declaration of which he is certain is "good".

But what he actually does is to attack the obvious:  Churches (he’s not dealing with the issue of the existence of God)… Churches are composed of humans and sometimes get things wrong (a foible which Fox attacks with juvenile lust).  Certainly some Southern churches have endorsed slavery (as have secular Democrats).  This proves exactly nothing.  It was Christian influence (e.g.  Mennonites and in Britain, Wilberforce) that led to the abolition of slavery, not secularism).  Nonetheless, Fox besmirches the church with whatever he can.

His next claim is that religion – as he sees it – takes away valuable time and resources from dealing with the actual problem, which seems to be the issue of “what is good”.  This inefficiency is apparently evil in Fox’s moral estimation.  Churches think they already know what morality is, but they should be spending full time trying to figure out what it is...?  Fox doesn't even do that.  He already knows what his morality is.

And this results in the following statement, perhaps indicative of the intellectual level of the entire discourse:
” Considering that you and your group will expend some of their time and energy in chanting, speaking in tongues, handling snakes, adjusting your funny hats, kneeling and praying with Brother Pat, lighting candles, arranging incense, polishing up the gold elephant statues, cutting parts off babies, poring over bomb designs – whatever your particular religion demands you do – you will definitely have less time for door opening. You will get less accomplished with your limited time, energy and intelligence applied to the mixed effort than if you had focused the full of your available resources on moral behavior alone.”
The self-righteous bigotry oozes forth.  Does Fox believe that his list is descriptive of Christian theology?  It doesn't matter whether he does or does not, because he uses his list as if it definitely were the fundamentals of theology, and he hates it, having selected it for that purpose.  Fox is not necessarily an Atheist so much as he is a hater.  And he has given us the foundation for his hatred by sharing the elements which disgust him.  Does this prove to him that there is no God?  We can’t know from just this chapter.  But it ‘s not over.
” The sad fact is, if your main focus is your religion and not your morality, you and your friends become less able to achieve some full measure of morality.
In his mind (and there only) Fox has divorced religion – or is it Christianity? – or is it all religious believers? – from morality, thereby enabling him to believe himself more moral than any religious persons and able to tell them so.  He, RNBC Fox, spends no time which is not focused purely on a full measure of morality, or so he implies.  His righteousness is measurable therefore as an efficiency co-efficient. 

As he proceeds it is becoming obvious that the authority and source for morality in Fox’s world is Fox.  Are his particular commandments coming up?  Or is it Relativism or perhaps consequentialism which the Atheist Fox prefers?

Fortunately for us, Fox does elaborate on how one “gets morals”.  First he sets up another strawman:
” It is impossible to be a moral being yourself, or a positive moral force in your society if you don’t understand something of the reasons for moral acts. People who think that only religious faith keeps you from committing crimes – and I’ve heard that silly question often enough “If you don’t believe in God, what keeps you from committing murder anytime you feel like it?” that it must be a pretty common idea – have no way to think about morality beyond “I have to do what my god says.”



Worse, contained within that question, a question suggested by everything taught in churches, is the statement that the natural desire of human beings is to rob and kill others and the only thing restraining them is their good Christian faith. Freighted within the question is the clear implication that compassion, love, charity, tenderness and decency are unnatural, alien traits to humans, and become available only after you start to believe in God. For people who believe that, every person outside their religion is automatically wicked.



To me, this is so far beyond insulting – not just to me but to the entire human species – it’s just plain filth. “
This bogus set-up is precisely NOT what is taught in Christianity – but of course Fox specifically doesn’t want to spend the effort to see what Christianity really is; he prefers to make stuff up, call it Christian or at least “religion”, and then to bash that little clay creation as if it were the real thing.  If he is insulted, he insulted himself and then took umbrage at the insult.

But he charges ahead with his declaration of moral causation:

” For instance, why open doors for old people? Why really?


Because it’s good to help those less strong than ourselves – it costs you almost nothing but might mean a great deal to the person you do it for.



Because it’s a win-win: It gives you a good feeling to know you’re helping someone, and it gives them a good feeling that someone cares enough to offer help.


Because if you help maintain the tradition of young people opening doors for elders, you yourself will probably someday benefit.

Because generous acts help maintain an overall friendly atmosphere in your society, which benefits everybody. If you help some elderly person, it’s likely someone else will follow your example and help your own parents or grandparents ... or your pregnant wife, or a handicapped child, or just someone tired and harried and in need of a little human caring.

Because compassion feels good, and even though the beneficiary of the act may be a total stranger, the act itself makes you a better person for yourself and your family.

Compare this list of reasons to the juvenile, simplistic “Because my supernatural sky-daddy commands it.” The two mindsets are not even in the same ballpark.

The same process holds for every other aspect of morality. “

Let’s review.

First, it’s “good” to do X because (a) it costs nothing, and (b) the recipient of X will like it.  I.e., it is good because the consequences are positive: Consequentialist.

Second, it’s win – win.  Consequentialist.

Third, it’s tradition and you might benefit.  Consequentialist.

Fourth, if you are generous it might get passed on.  Consequentialist.

Fifth, it feels good.  Consequentialist.

Simplistic Consequentialism never rises to the comprehension that designating only the ends as beneficial leaves open the question of the means to those ends, and whether a “good” end justifies any means whatsoever to get there.  Possibly Fox is not really Consequentialist, but has merely selected his moral declarations for this writing which are Consequentialist.  And possibly Fox has never even heard of Consequentialism, being of a proud Red Neck Blue Collar ignorant persuasion.  But fox is not above pompous conclusions:
” The guy who understands the real mechanics of morality is far more advanced, morally, than someone who robotically does what he’s commanded, who fearfully does “good” acts to avoid eternal fire, or who selfishly chalks up goodie points only for the purpose of bargaining for his own everlasting life.



He’s also a much better neighbor to those who hold other faiths, or no faith at all.
Fox makes up one last strawman, the presumption that a person is a robot if one thinks that the authority for making moral pronouncements should reside with someone other than Fox or any other human.  But the reverse is the case: why should any person take moral lessons from Fox, or from any other human?  Which human is it who has the unquestionable moral authority to dictate to all other humans such things as moral tenets?  Why should anyone conclude that Fox has some preternatural moral abilities that they do not have?

Returning to Fox’s first strawman (model 1), the church which contains all morals, and comparing that to Fox’s several positions including his pride in his personal ignorance, can we conclude that there is a deathless moral message contained in this chapter of Fox’s book?  Consequentialism is an easy, wide and comfortable road, and is not even really a morality; it is a technique for declaring that something you approve of and want is a "moral objective" and then filling in the tactics to get it.   The morality is had merely by declaring it to be moral (the Alinsky method); the reason it is moral is that the consequences are desirable to the declarer – true logical circularity.  Nonetheless, the declarer of the moral objective gets what he wants, and those opposed are thus immoral.  It’s that simple.

So what if a person decides that other people do not have any moral authority to tell him how to lead his life?  There are three choices: the person can determine his own moral code; he can choose to have no moral code; or he can look to a higher, Godelian authority.  Fox seems to have chosen the first, developing his own moral code and claiming that it is common sense, with the further expectation that it is universal, and the even further expectation that it will be accepted as "reason".  And he also seems to think that those not taken by his particular bias are not moral, which is the exact charge he makes against others, and in that sense he is just another denomination of the same church.

Perhaps Fox is unaware that human moralists are a dime a dozen, and that none of them, him included, have any claim on unquestionable moral authority of a universal nature which makes their declarations of any value to other humans.  Fox will find a following who enjoy his sarcasm (which they interpret as “humor”).  But there is nothing of a universal nature in his, or for that matter, any moralizer’s pet theories.  And certainly one would expect morals, if they exist, to be universal; otherwise they are just opinions, and that is what we have here, Fox’s opinions, strewn with false theology, false demography, and with copious sarcasm and a little undisguised hate.  If that works for you, then buy his book.

Addendum:
Can you think of instances where it would not be moral to open doors for old persons?  I can.
1.  The door is the exit from an airplane in flight.
2.  The old person doesn't want to use the door.
3.  The door is to a bathroom which is currently in use.
4.  The door is to a mass shower with fake shower heads that issue toxic gas.
5.  The door releases a cage full of lions into an arena containing elderly gladiators armed with soup spoons.

The immediate response to this list might be that this sort of thing was never Fox's intent.  It is right in line, however, with Fox's perversion of Christianity, a tat for his tit, as it were.  There is no use in protesting a distortion if distortion is your own form of intellectual currency.

6.  The door is a trap door beneath the elder's feet.  Perhaps this might be OK if the elder lands on a giant whoopie cushion?
7. The door holds up a concealed ironing board which will goose-egg the elder. (An old Marx Bro. fav.)
8. That's enough: point should be made by now.

55 comments:

FrankNorman said...

Same old, same old...

I'm starting to wonder - do all these church-haters go to some special "Atheist College" where they get taught a standard set of talking-points and squiffy arguments?

Stan said...

Actually there is an Atheist summer camp for kids. And I think maybe most colleges today have a stock of profs who teach/preach materialism. But Fox made up his own brand. Apparently he's too busy thinking moral thoughts to study anything.

Chris said...

This entry prompted me to return to the question of atheism and its relationship to agnosticism. I was on About.com where Austin Cline says the following:

"Agnosticism is not about belief in God but about knowledge- it was coined originally to describe the position of a person who could not claim to know for sure if any gods exist or not.

Thus, it is clear that agnosticism is compatible with both atheism and theism. A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; the result is agnostic theism. On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism......

In the end, the fact of the matter is a person isn't faced with the necessity of only being an atheist or an agnostic. Quite the contrary, not only can a person be both, but it is in fact common for people to be both agnostics and atheists. An agnostic atheist won't claim to know for sure that nothing warranting the label "God" exists or that such cannot exist, but they also don't actively believe that such an entity does indeed exist."

Thoughts?

Stan said...

Cline would have us believe that Atheism is not a firm position by trying to muddy the waters with phony definitions.

Atheism is the belief that there is no God.

Of my several dictionaries, all of them have some version of this statement of positive belief. Atheism is the positive belief that there is no God.

The reason Atheists have been trying to change the definition is because they have been made aware that their positive belief is without any empirical or material proof. Such proof is what they demand of theists, and when it is not given, theists are accused of the sin of "blind belief". Yet Atheists are subject to the same condition, but even worse, without rational conclusive argument; therefore the Atheist is engaging in a religion of "blind belief", one that is not even rational.

So the Atheist community is trying to change the definition of Atheism to include Agnosticism, which is the intellectually cowardly position that not enough information is available - still a materialist fallacy.

But by including Agnosticism the Atheists believe that they can get away with no need for proving their own beliefs using the same criteria required of theists.

It is intellectual dishonesty; but in a religion which claims no truth, then there is no falseness either, so there are no lies, just techniques. Honesty cannot occur in a culture that does not believe in truth. As Vox Day just said, it is reasonable to assume that an Atheist is a "lying snake". That's because to the Atheist there is no truth, no lies, only Consequences matter, and the Atheist gets to choose the consequence and the means to the consequence.

BOSWELL: I added that the same person maintained that there was no distinction between virtue and vice.

JOHNSON. “Why, Sir, if the fellow does not think as he speaks, he is lying; and I see not what honour he can propose to himself from having the character of a lyar. But if he does really think that there is no distinction between virtue and vice, why, Sir, when he leaves our houses let us count our spoons.”

Martin said...

Stan,

Agnosticism, which is the intellectually cowardly position that not enough information is available - still a materialist fallacy.

Hey!

Chris said...

When I read that comment, I thought to myself, "Uh, I wonder how Martin will take that?" (smiling)

Agnosticism means "without knowledge".

Well, I'd say the real question is "What is knowledge?"

Is it an unassailable proof? Or, is it that which can pass the scientific test- those things that we can predict and/or control.

Ultimately, does agnosticism and deism amount to practical atheism "on the ground"?

Unknown said...

Stan derides the “soft atheism” usage of “atheism” as a “phony definition”: Cline would have us believe that Atheism is not a firm position by trying to muddy the waters with phony definitions. Atheism is the belief that there is no God. Of my several dictionaries, all of them have some version of this statement of positive belief.

Which dictionaries would those be, Stan?

Would any of them be:

Webster’s New World College Dictionary (4th Edition): 1. the belief that there is no God, or denial that God or gods exist. 2. godlessness

Merrimam-Webster (11th Edition): 1. archaic UNGODLINESS; WICKEDNESS. 2. a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: 1. a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. 2. Godlessness; immorality.

Random House Dictionary: 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God. 2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Because all of those include a definition of atheism as mere disbelief.

What I would like to check is: Did you, to back up your contention that the broader, inclusive sense of “atheism” is a “phony definition”, cite any dictionaries which include that “phony definition”? Because if you did, that, sir, was intellectually dishonest.

Unknown said...

Stan also writes: So the Atheist community is trying to change the definition of Atheism to include Agnosticism...

If so, they changed centuries before you and I were born:

“All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God.”
— “Good Sense Without God” (1772), Baron d’Holbach

Fred said...

All children are also born illiterate. Does that mean writing doesn't exist? lol

Unknown said...

If you thought you were parodying an argument anyone had made, Fred, you’re mistaken.

Stan said...

Robin Lionheart said,
"Which dictionaries would those be, Stan? "

First off read what I wrote, then read what your dictionaries said: virtually identical. But let's pursue this.

I guess I need to put this in the header, I have answered it so many times.

The Miriam Webster Dictionary, 2004:
athe-ist \a-the-ist\ n. one who denies the existence of God.

Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, 2nd Ed, 1979:

a' the-ist, n. one who believes that there is no God.

The New International Webster's Comprehensive Dictionary, Deluxe Encyclopedic Version, 2004:

a-the-ist (a'the-ist)n. One who denies or disbelieves in the existence of God.


As for disbelief,
The New International Webster's Comprehensive Dictionary, Deluxe Encyclopedic Version, 2004:

disbelief (dis'bi-lef') n. A conviction that a statement is untrue; positive unbelief.

disbelieve (dis'bi-lev') V.t. & v.i. -lieved, -lieving To refuse to believe; deem false.

Even your own definitions disprove your assertion, which is made with haughty assurance.

Unsaddle your high horse; you are wrong, but you are welcome to make your case here.

Unknown said...

Interesting. Merriam-Webster includes both broad and narrow definitions for “atheism”, but only a narrow one for “atheist”:

athe·ism noun \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\ 1. archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2. a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity

athe·ist noun \ˈā-thē-ist\ : one who believes that there is no deity

Apparently, between your 2004 edition and their online edition, Merriam revised their definition to be less biased, though still incomplete.

Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary Unabridged (2nd Ed.) was exactly as you describe.

I didn’t bother confirming The New International Webster's Comprehensive Dictionary, since it supports both usages. My suspicions that you ignored disconfirming entries in your dictionaries seems only 1/3 founded.


So I’ll see your deficient Websterses, and raise you an Oxford English Dictionary, the most exhaustive dictionary of English:

atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God. Also, Disregard of duty to God, godlessness (practical atheism).

atheist A. n. 1. One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God.
2. One who practically denies the existence of a God by disregard of moral obligation to Him; a godless man.
B. adj. Atheistic, impious.

disbelief The action or an act of disbelieving; mental rejection of a statement or assertion; positive unbelief.

disbelieve 1. trans. Not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to:
a. a statement or (alleged) fact: To reject the truth or reality of. (With simple obj. or obj. clause.)
b. a person in making a statement.
2. absol. or intr.
3. intr. with in: Not to believe in; to have no faith in: cf. believe v. 1, 7.

Stan said...

So what exactly is your point? If we take the position that Atheism is "disbelief in the existence of God", and substitute in the dictionary definitions, we get something like this:

Atheism is "The action or an act of disbelieving; mental rejection of a statement or assertion; positive unbelief" in the existence of God.

That is incompatible with having "no God belief"; it is a positive belief, an overt act, an action, about the existence of God, specifically that God does not exist.

However regardless of all this semantic legality, what is your view? Here's why I ask. There are only so many possibilities for honest answers to this issue:

1. Haven't heard the theory: No God theory; Ignorant of the issue.
2. Have heard the theory and reject it: Atheism.
3. Have heard the theory and accept it: Theism.
4. Have heard the theory and cannot decide: Agnostic.
5. Have heard the theory but don't care: No God Theory.

These are traditional definitions, if somewhat truncated. These days Atheists wish to parse these into fine grained divisions, and then to redistribute meanings into sets or categories that previously were not open to those meanings. The purpose for this is transparent: to avoid the necessity for supporting their own position using the conditions which they, in turn, place on theists. Namely to be required to produce material, empirical proof for their worldview belief system.

This is true violation of intellectual integrity: holding the Other to different rules than for oneself, and developing rationalizations for giving oneself a pass on those rules.

Not only is it intellectually dishonest, it is indicative of intellectual subjugation to dogmatic, unprovable, and non-rational principles - all the while claiming to have the corner on intellectual superiority and rationality.

When these are coupled together, the overt action of change to avoid responsibility for one's beliefs, along with the devotion to unprovable dogma while claiming rationality, the reason for distrusting Atheists becomes apparent (or should). If they cannot be honest about their beliefs, why should they be trusted in anything else at all?

And finally, if a person accepts this sort of mental behavior by Atheists, it affects his ability to think straight in normal affairs, since rationalization takes precedence over rationality.

Unknown said...

“These days Atheists wish to parse these into fine grained divisions, and then to redistribute meanings into sets or categories that previously were not open to those meanings.”

For decades, atheists have parsed these into fine grained distinctions, to clarify which subset of “atheists” we’re discussing.

“The purpose for this is transparent: to avoid the necessity for supporting their own position using the conditions which they, in turn, place on theists.”

The purpose of this is obvious to anyone who has read a message board argument dickering over semantics: to avoid ambiguity by having a term of art for each distinct sense of “atheism”.

It’s not all about you theists.

“Namely to be required to produce material, empirical proof for their worldview belief system.”

Atheism isn't even a belief, much less a system. There exists no belief that all atheists, from Raelians to Randians to Rinzai Zen Buddhists to rationalists, share. Even we hard atheists only have in common one single position on one single issue.

“This is true violation of intellectual integrity: holding the Other to different rules than for oneself, and developing rationalizations for giving oneself a pass on those rules.”

Like apologists rationalize giving a pass to God? :)

Stan said...

Robin said,
”The purpose of this is obvious to anyone who has read a message board argument dickering over semantics: to avoid ambiguity by having a term of art for each distinct sense of “atheism”.

It’s not all about you theists.”


But then you say,

”one single position on one single issue.”

And thus only one Atheism, with “one single position and one single issue”.

But the redefinition used by Atheists who show up here is always, “we just have no God belief, therefore we have no burden of proof for our belief system; so we can believe whatever we want without proof, but you need to show us physical proof or an incontrovertible argument for your position”. Internal term of art? I don’t think so. Dodge of intellectual responsibilities? Yep.

”Like apologists rationalize giving a pass to God? :)”

I have no idea what this means, but judging from the punctuation at the end, I suspect jocularity should ensue. Why would God need a pass? A pass for what? "God, go long!"? Nope, no laughs there. You’ll have to explain.

Unknown said...

Stan,

“But the redefinition used by Atheists who show up here is always, “we just have no God belief, therefore we have no burden of proof for our belief system; so we can believe whatever we want without proof, but you need to show us physical proof or an incontrovertible argument for your position”.”

Let me try to help you understand:

Theist: There is a god.
Atheist: I don’t believe you. Prove it.
Theist: Why don’t you prove there’s not one?
Atheist: Because you’re the one making a claim, not me.
Theist: You claimed I'm wrong.
Atheist: No, I said I don’t believe you. I’m not making a claim, I’m rejecting yours.

Stan said...

We probably ought to get this one point made. Very likely no one who reads this cares that you "disbelieve" whatever you disbelieve. This forum is interested in why and on what grounds someone rejects propositions that have been made. You have given no grounds other than the primitive "prove it".

If you merely had no belief, you would not be here making all your noise about it. But you appear to wish to rebut the claim without actually discussing it, so you make a lot of racket from behind the bushes. If you merely have no God theory, fine, you are in the same category with rocks, sponges and quarks. (And I don't believe you). However, if you reject it (disbelief in it), and make a lot of racket about it, then it is your responsibility to provide an adequate rebuttal, one that we will accept due to the overwhelming truth value of your claim.

The Burden of Rebuttal is yours. So either make it, or give up the arrogant stand you take despite having NO REBUTTAL.

The original argument claim stands, and we await your rebuttal.

Denying that active, in your face disbelief is a position on the subject is an intellectually cowardly dodge. An intellectual run-away! run-away! I'm sure you can do better than that.

So if you wish to discuss the reasons you have for denying the existence of a First Cause in rational arguments, then bring them on. There are those here who will engage you on those terms. So try putting your arguments into syllogistic form, and lay them on us.

Or at least give the most fundamental reason: I disbelieve [ X ] because [ Y ], where Y is a concrete reason. If Y is "you didn't prove it", then give the evidence types that you personally accept (Material, physical, empirical or whatever).

Then we have something to discuss, rather than just "I disbelieve you".

Unknown said...

Fay: You know, my flowers are so beautiful cause of the fairies in my garden.
Sean: Fairies? I doubt that! Show me a fairy.
Fay: You can't prove there aren’t fairies in my garden.
Sean: No, I can’t. But you’ve got the burden of proof, not me.
Fay: Well, then, you’ve got the burden of, uh, rebuttal! Give me one good reason you don't believe me!
Sean: Because you haven’t shown me any evidence. If you want me to believe in magical pixies, I need more than just your word.

As Hitchens puts it, “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

As for your first cause argument, I’ve poked holes in that on another post.

But suppose, for the sake of argument, that there were an uncaused first cause. Why should I believe that that cause was a magical being rather than, say, a random vacuum fluctuation? Why a supernatural first cause, rather than a natural one?

Fred said...

If so, they changed centuries before you and I were born:

“All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God.”
— “Good Sense Without God” (1772), Baron d’Holbach


The d'Holbach quote is taken quite completely out of context. He was not providing this as a definition for atheism. Just because it's been found among all the literature on the subject in the past few hundred years to back up the 'definition du jour' for atheism doesn't mean this represented a sea change in the standard understanding of what atheism is: the belief that there is no God.

Rather than looking in dictionaries for what the definition is, why not ask the 'man in the street' what it is? Surely, that one stands to be more objective and indeed more relevant. I'm pretty certain a survey would show the majority understand it as the belief that there is no God.

With regard to my comment, I was just addressing the larger argument sometimes made with this quote or the idea implicit within it: that God is an alien or unnatural concept to human beings and that belief in the supernatural can only come about through outside imposition and indoctrination.

People have in fact been left alone to make their minds up for a long time now, and in all parts of the globe - no matter how isolated - they've come up with an understanding of reality that involves the supernatural, usually sitting at the core of their understanding of all things, material and otherwise. But, of course, everyone is just superstitious, gullibile and stupid.

Stan said...

First off, the comparison of a first cause to faeries is disingenuous, and it is a Red Herring of the Straw Man type. There is no evidence for faeries. But the evidence for a first cause is the “first effect”, which is the universe. One must argue against the actual argument being made. Arguing against other false arguments in the hope that the obvious conclusion that those arguments are false will prove that the argument at hand is also false, is poor argumentation and false logic.

Hitchens statement is without evidence for its truth value – it is therefore non-coherent, unless he can provide proof that it is True. He offers it as a self-evident Truth, and others accept it uncritically due to its congruence with their worldview. But it fails the simplest of logical tests, Non-contradiction.

You have made no argument against first cause, your arguments are all peripheral attacks on Straw Men, such as faeries.

”But suppose, for the sake of argument, that there were an uncaused first cause. Why should I believe that that cause was a magical being rather than, say, a random vacuum fluctuation? Why a supernatural first cause, rather than a natural one?”

First, there is no argument here for an “uncaused” first cause, merely a first cause.

Second, your term “magical being” poisons the well and makes your argument (or request for argument) a Red Herring in and of itself. No one posits a magical being, that is your slur, used to derail the argument before it can even start.

Third, your set-up destroys the apparent utility of your final sentence, which if taken by itself, would merit an answer. But not in the company of the poisoned well.

Unknown said...

Rather than looking in dictionaries for what the definition is, why not ask the 'man in the street' what it is?

While we’re at it, why not look to literature to observe how writers use it?

Just because it's been found among all the literature on the subject in the past few hundred years...

Ah, so that’s why. :)

If it’s found in all the literature for the past hundred years, it’s a genuine usage of fine pedigree, not a “phony definition”.

He was not providing this as a definition for atheism.

It doesn’t matter whether d’Holbach was defining “atheism”, we’re looking at how the word was used.

People have in fact been left alone to make their minds up for a long time now, and in all parts of the globe - no matter how isolated - they've come up with an understanding of reality that involves the supernatural, usually sitting at the core of their understanding of all things, material and otherwise.

And a billion people from disparate cultures all around our planet have, as a core part of their worldview, reincarnation. Surely this means they couldn’t all be wrong!~

Unknown said...

Stan,

Are you just throwing names of fallacies against the wall to see if any will stick?

My little fairy vignette was not a straw man, nor a red herring, it was an argument by analogy. They’re rather common in philosophy. The scenario addressed your claimed “burden of rebuttal”, putting this supposed burden in a context that highlighted its vacuity.

“First, there is no argument here for an “uncaused” first cause, merely a first cause.”

You would keep your options open for a caused first cause? Hardly “first” then, no?

“No one posits a magical being, that is your slur, used to derail the argument before it can even start.”

They do posit supernatural powers operating beyond the laws of physics. There’s a word for that: magic.

“...your final sentence, which if taken by itself, would merit an answer. But not in the company of the poisoned well.”

You just implicitly admitted to ducking the question.

Stan said...

Robin 3 091811

Robin:
” Are you just throwing names of fallacies against the wall to see if any will stick?

My little fairy vignette was not a straw man, nor a red herring, it was an argument by analogy. They’re rather common in philosophy. The scenario addressed your claimed “burden of rebuttal”, putting this supposed burden in a context that highlighted its vacuity.”


From the Fallacy Files:
False Analogy
Type: Informal Fallacy
Form:
A is like B.
B has property P.
Therefore, A has property P.
(Where the analogy between A and B is weak.)

Many of the Fallacy descriptions overlap, because they generate from the same underlying issue; in this case the fallacy heritage is “misdirection”.

” You would keep your options open for a caused first cause? Hardly “first” then, no?

No, I refuse to let you use any notion which is beyond the issue at hand in order to try to derail the argument. All of your arguments have been directed at misdirection, because you cannot address the issue straight on. Either address the issue at hand or admit that you cannot.

” They do posit supernatural powers operating beyond the laws of physics. There’s a word for that: magic.

Your intent is to poison the well with inferences toward sleight of hand, trickery, spells and gimickery. Your insistence in that regard, along with your refusal to address the issue at hand, by using erroneous notions of Fallacies and dodges, make it not worth the time it takes out of my life to try to discuss things with you.

Last time: what is your evidence for the non-existence of a first cause for the material universe?

Put up, or go away.

Unknown said...

““They do posit supernatural powers operating beyond the laws of physics. There’s a word for that: magic.””
“Your intent is to poison the well with inferences toward sleight of hand, trickery, spells and gimickery.”

Sleight of hand, trickery, and gimmickry, no.
Spells, okay, that would be the sort of “magic” I meant.

I explicitly meant supernatural abilities, not parlor tricks. Wizardry, not hocus-pocus.

So stop spewing spurious accusations of any fallacies you can think of, and address my points.

“Last time: what is your evidence for the non-existence of a first cause for the material universe?”

Also first time, by my count.

Recently, there have been interesting discoveries of echoes in the cosmic background radiation of events older than the Big Bang, caused by supermassive blackholes colliding. I don't know that there was no first cause, but these indications suggest that we may live in a cyclical universe. So, I think it is presently undetermined whether or not there was ever a first cause.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Stan,

““As Hitchens puts it, “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.””

“Hitchens statement is without evidence for its truth value – it is therefore non-coherent, unless he can provide proof that it is True. He offers it as a self-evident Truth, and others accept it uncritically due to its congruence with their worldview. But it fails the simplest of logical tests, Non-contradiction”

You argue against Hitchens’ statement as a truth claim, which would roughly mean “It is true that people are capable of dismissing unfounded assertions.” But that is a misreading. Hitchens’ statement does not assert a fact, but declares a rule of debate, meaning “If you have no evidence, your case may be dismissed.” Or better, “If you have no evidence, you have no case.”

If you insist on “proof” that things asserted without evidence can be dismissed, I could essay to show how it is indeed possible to dismiss assertions. Or if you insist on “proof” that no evidence = no case, I could essay to define those terms and show how it follows from their definitions. Then you could pull out your dictionaries and argue terms and we could have another boring, pointless argument over semantics. But you don’t really need me to derive the obvious. You’re just engaging in sophistry again.

Stan said...

Robin,
”You argue against Hitchens’ statement as a truth claim, which would roughly mean “It is true that people are capable of dismissing unfounded assertions.” But that is a misreading. Hitchens’ statement does not assert a fact, but declares a rule of debate, meaning “If you have no evidence, your case may be dismissed.” Or better, “If you have no evidence, you have no case.”

Hitchens made an argument which goes thus:

IF [an assertion is made without evidence], THEN [it can be dismissed without evidence].

When an argument is made, such as IF [ A ], THEN [ B ], it must be substantiable. In this case, there is first no substantiation (it is presupposed as self-evident) and second, it contradicts itself internally: it is an argument made with NO evidence and should therefore be dismissed under its own declaration.

Declaring it a rule rather than an argument brings up the same issue: why would a rule be declared that is internally inconsistent? The next question is: if it is a rule, then it is an imperative statement, which is declared under some authority: Who gave Hitchens the authority to define the rules of debate with an internally inconsistent rule? And who gave that authority the authority, ad infinitum? Hitchens does not define the rules of debate; one would think that to be obvious.

”If you insist on “proof” that things asserted without evidence can be dismissed, I could essay to show how it is indeed possible to dismiss assertions. Or if you insist on “proof” that no evidence = no case, I could essay to define those terms and show how it follows from their definitions. Then you could pull out your dictionaries and argue terms and we could have another boring, pointless argument over semantics. But you don’t really need me to derive the obvious. You’re just engaging in sophistry again.”

Disregarding the insults, do essays provide evidence in your world? The entire point here is that Hitchens statement is a dictum which is internally self-defeating. Tfhe existence of some claims that can be dismissed (which you would essay on) does not prove that there are NO claims made without evidence (more on evidence in a moment) that might be valid. The assertion made by Hitchens fails at every level.

Nor does Hitchens provide a case for the acceptable constituents of “evidence”. Presumably “evidence” claims by a materialist such as Hitchens and yourself would be material evidence, i.e. composed of material elements: mass/energy, and of nothing else which would be non-material. It is certainly possible, even necessary, to reject Hitchens argument because it is made without evidence that it is True, always and irrevocably True.

Materialism always fails for related reasons: it is not substantiable under its own rules for existence and knowledge, and it is therefore internally flawed. The only exception would be if the principle of Non-Contradiction is rejected as a criterion for logical processes (and some materialist philosophers do just that).

The charges of sophistry are being made due an inability to form, recognize, and respond to logical arguments. I suggest that rather then foist insults, you try logic based arguments.

Unknown said...

Stan,

Hitchens made an argument which goes thus:

IF [an assertion is made without evidence], THEN [it can be dismissed without evidence].

When an argument is made, such as IF [ A ], THEN [ B ], it must be substantiable. In this case, there is first no substantiation (it is presupposed as self-evident) and second, it contradicts itself internally: it is an argument made with NO evidence and should therefore be dismissed under its own declaration.

Firstly, this assertion does not claim to be made with evidence, therefore having no evidence is not an internal contradiction. Your charge of internal contradiction is false.

Secondly, since you do insist, I shall substantiate Hitchens’ claim:

You have received Hitchens’ assertion, made without evidence it is true.

You just dismissed that assertion without evidence that it is false.

An assertion made without evidence was dismissed without evidence.

Therefore, it is the case that an assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Thus you have just proven Hitchens’ assertion was true, QED. :)

Stan said...

Robin,
” Firstly, this assertion does not claim to be made with evidence, therefore having no evidence is not an internal contradiction. Your charge of internal contradiction is false.”

Robin that is just silly. You are either arguing just hear yourself rattle, or you are too far out in the weeds to try to deal with.

Hitchens makes no claim that alleges an exception for his particular argument – there is no exception for “not claiming to be made with evidence”: sheesh. At least make up something that makes a Little sense. You are arguing that any argument which is made without presenting itself as needing evidence is excepted from Hitchens’ argument. No evidence claimed; no evidence required. C’mon. Think things through.

My evidence that Hitchen’s claim is false is made using the standard logical principles and process. Under that analysis, his claim is non-coherent, therefore it is irrational. That is evidence in my world, which is not Materialist. What is your evidence that it is a categorically true statement? Since you and Hitchens are Materialists, the evidence must be material, in the form that can be analyzed using empirical methodology.

People who argue against the principles of logic serve to demonstrate the emptiness of their philosophy / ideology. And that is the ultimate fate of both Atheism and Materialism.

Unknown said...

Stan,

“Hitchens makes no claim that alleges an exception for his particular argument – there is no exception for “not claiming to be made with evidence”: sheesh.”

Yes, I just agreed that Hitchens’ ‘assertion’ applied to itself. You dismissed it, just like Hitchens’ ‘assertion’ says you can, proving Hitchens right.

“My evidence that Hitchen’s claim is false is made using the standard logical principles and process. Under that analysis, his claim is non-coherent, therefore it is irrational.”

The statement “The earth is round.” is coherent and valid, even though it provides no evidence. Hitchens’ ‘assertion’ is coherent, logical, and eminently sensible.

And your dismissal proved that his ‘assertion’ was not false.

“People who argue against the principles of logic serve to demonstrate the emptiness of their philosophy / ideology. And that is the ultimate fate of both Atheism and Materialism.”

I will be happy not to argue against them.

You seem to have a strong grudge against materialists. Why is that?

Unknown said...

Stan,

“What is your evidence that it is a categorically true statement?”

Proof by contradiction:

H. “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

(1) Assume H is false: That which can be asserted without evidence, cannot be dismissed without evidence.
(2) H is asserted without evidence.
(3) H cannot be dismissed without evidence.
(4) Stan dismissed H without evidence, contradicting (3) and (1).
(5) Therefore, H is not false.

Stan said...

As before, which you ignore, I presented evidence of the logical kind. You are beating a dead horse.

Now if you are insisting that material evidence be required, then you must provide material evidence for that assertion.

As for the question about a grudge, no, no grudge for Materialists. Materialism is too blatantly self-defeating to hold a grudge against the entire category, and besides, I don't have discussions with everyone in the category. There might be some who are open to logic. What I do get onto though is people who refuse to accede to obvious logical fallacies, even when the Fallacy Files are quoted to them. failure to admit error is a serious intellectual dishonesty problem, one that seems to occur in many Materialists.

That type of dishonesty, which you are now displaying, makes it impossible to have serious discussions. I'd rather have serious discussions about actual issues, than to waste time stuck on an obvious error to which the Materialist will not, can not admit.

There quickly comes a time in such a useless back and forth when the entire discussion must be put to an end, purely due to the necessity of the Materialist to stick to the Fallacy rather than admit to it. That time is approaching in this "conversation".

Unknown said...

“As before, which you ignore, I presented evidence of the logical kind.”

And as before, which you still ignore, I refuted your false evidence. You did not cite an actual contradiction.

“Now if you are insisting that material evidence be required, then you must provide material evidence for that assertion.”

Good thing I never insisted that, then.

“What I do get onto though is people who refuse to accede to obvious logical fallacies, even when the Fallacy Files are quoted to them.”

I know how you feel, I recently talked to someone who quoted the “tu quoque” entry to me, even though it proved he was using “tu quoque” wrong.

“failure to admit error is a serious intellectual dishonesty problem, one that seems to occur in many Materialists. That type of dishonesty, which you are now displaying, makes it impossible to have serious discussions.”

Your words, not mine.

Do you think saying things like that is conducive to having serious discussions?

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stan said...

Ok, then, based on that ridiculous conclusion, your future comments will be removed. Your comments up to now will stay as a demonstration for anyone wishing to dissect this thread.

Adios.

Anonymouse said...

Why would you delete his "ridiculous conclusion"? If it is so ridiculous then wouldn't it be the perfect testament to your superior logical skills to let it stand on its own merit? I think you are just afraid of whatever he posted...

Russell said...

Sorry, Anon, Stan didn't delete the last comment.

"This post has been removed by the author." The author refers to Robin. He had deleted a number of them over the course of his rambling.

If you can't see the ridiculous conclusion in Robin's last non-deleted comment, just say so. It'll be a lot more beneficial than accusing Stan of cowardice.

Stan said...

The comment just prior to the announcement of Robin's dismissal was removed by Robin, not by me. I did not delete any of Robin's comments before the announcement, but I did remove two after the announcement. All of Robin's comments prior to the announcement of his removal will be preserved, unless removed by Robin.

Fred said...

While we’re at it, why not look to literature to observe how writers use it?

Because that isn't quite the same thing now is it? Especially writings by people who have already taken a strong position on the issue. Also, one example of one writer using it in this way does not a trend nor quasi-universal agreed upon definition make.
Quite certain if one were to make a survey of all definitions of atheism found in past literature the majority would still come out as: the belief that there is no God.

If it’s found in all the literature for the past hundred years, it’s a genuine usage of fine pedigree, not a “phony definition”.

I didn't say it's found in ALL the literature, I said you found a single quote AMONG all the literature. Not quite the same thing.

It doesn’t matter whether d’Holbach was defining “atheism”, we’re looking at how the word was used.

Providing a single example of the word being used in this way does not mean it was universally used in this way.
One would think it would matter a great deal what d'Holbach's definition of atheism was, but that probably wouldn't suit your argument.

And a billion people from disparate cultures all around our planet have, as a core part of their worldview, reincarnation. Surely this means they couldn’t all be wrong!~

Reincarnation sits quite squarely among the things one would call "supernatural". I don't see your point.

Russell said...

"If it’s found in all the literature for the past hundred years, it’s a genuine usage of fine pedigree, not a “phony definition”."

"And a billion people from disparate cultures all around our planet have, as a core part of their worldview, reincarnation. Surely this means they couldn’t all be wrong!"

Wait, so Robin was arguing that the popular meaning of a word was correct, but the popular belief of what happens after death was not correct?

Kind of shoots himself in the foot, first arguing that a large enough set of people can dictate the truth about a belief, then saying it doesn't matter the size of the set, the set cannot dictate the truth about a belief.

Andrew G. said...

The only sense in which a word has "meaning" is in the meaning ascribed to it by the people who use it.

Those meanings can, and often do, change between social groups and over time.

Dictionaries exist solely to document the usage of words. As the meanings change over time, so do the dictionary definitions, as new editions of dictionaries are published.

So if a word has a widespread use with a particular meaning not found in the dictionary, then that really is a defect in the dictionary, and the users of the word are correct. Dictionaries are references, not authorities. (I am here referring primarily to English; some other languages have bodies who consider themselves authorities over the definitions and usages of words.)

In contrast, belief in reincarnation is a statement about an objective fact of reality, and therefore is true or false independently of the number of people who believe it.

I believe the applicable fallacy in this instance is "false analogy".

Stan said...

Andrew G said,

”The only sense in which a word has "meaning" is in the meaning ascribed to it by the people who use it.

Those meanings can, and often do, change between social groups and over time.”


OK.

”Dictionaries exist solely to document the usage of words. As the meanings change over time, so do the dictionary definitions, as new editions of dictionaries are published.”

OK.

”So if a word has a widespread use with a particular meaning not found in the dictionary, then that really is a defect in the dictionary, and the users of the word are correct.”

Whoa. That depends on how “widespread” that new use is. This comment is apparently a response to the Atheist change of the several definitions that have been discussed before, including changing fallacy definitions as well as changing the definition of Atheism to include rocks and butterflies. They also wish to change the definition of Christians to suit their prejudices of what a Christian is in their own minds rather than reality. Atheists are a tiny minority, vocal but tiny. In order for them to change definitions they must garner an acceptance of their new definitions by the general populace. That has not happened. So any implications of the propriety of Atheist definition change legitimacy are false.

” Dictionaries are references, not authorities. (I am here referring primarily to English; some other languages have bodies who consider themselves authorities over the definitions and usages of words.)”

If a reference has no authority, it is useless as a reference. Dictionaries are references with the authority of those who poll the literature and popular usage for common semantics of the word and its context. The above statement denying the authority of dictionaries appears false, but if it is defensible, then that defense is need to support it.

”n contrast, belief in reincarnation is a statement about an objective fact of reality, and therefore is true or false independently of the number of people who believe it.”

This statement seems not to fit into the conversation.

”I believe the applicable fallacy in this instance is "false analogy".”

This statement needs a referent; otherwise it seems not to fit into the conversation either.

Andrew G. said...

I thought it was obvious that my comment related to the preceding comment from 'Russell', which draws a false analogy between belief about the meaning of a word and belief about an objective fact.

The original mention of reincarnation seems to have been from Robin in response to an ad populam argument from Fred concerning supernaturalism.

Stan said...

OK, then I'll let Russell and Fred respond.

Russell said...

'Andrew'

You might be right, I could have made a mistake and committed a fallacy, but I'm not seeing it yet.

Was my summary of the two arguments incorrect?

Could you define the false analogy fallacy? I want to make sure I understand it.

Andrew G. said...

False analogy (or weak analogy):

1) A has property P.
2) B is like A.
3) Therefore B has property P.

This is a fallacy unless the "like" relationship claimed between A and B is sufficiently strong to support the implication that A and B must necessarily share the property P.

In this case, A is "belief in reincarnation", B is "belief in a specific meaning of the word 'atheism'", the property P is "truth value is not determined by the number of believers", and the analogy is that both A and B are beliefs.

(I suppose this specific case could also be considered a kind of equivocation, between "belief [in the meaning of a word]" and "belief [in a fact of objective reality]".)

The fact is that the truth of a belief about the meaning of a word is determined by the people who believe it, since words mean nothing more nor less than what people believe them to mean. Whereas the truth of a belief about objective reality (presuming reality exists) is not determined by the people who believe it, since that's what "objective" means. Therefore the analogy fails.

Russell said...

Thanks, I think I'm following. The first part made sense, but the second still has be a bit confused.

"In this case, A is "belief in reincarnation", B is "belief in a specific meaning of the word 'atheism'", the property P is "truth value is not determined by the number of believers", and the analogy is that both A and B are beliefs. "

Agreed, since that was my point :)

"(I suppose this specific case could also be considered a kind of equivocation, between "belief [in the meaning of a word]" and "belief [in a fact of objective reality]".)

The fact is that the truth of a belief about the meaning of a word is determined by the people who believe it, since words mean nothing more nor less than what people believe them to mean. Whereas the truth of a belief about objective reality (presuming reality exists) is not determined by the people who believe it, since that's what "objective" means. Therefore the analogy fails."

Here's where I'm not in agreement: "since words mean nothing more nor less than what people believe them to mean". The argument Robin used wasn't about meanings and words in general, but the specific meaning of a single word "Atheist" which does indeed attempt to describe objective reality. In this case, "Atheist" describes people with certain characteristics, right? These characteristics are defined in a dictionary. (BTW, English language dictionaries are both descriptive and prescriptive, they define and enforce the meanings, and there is much argument about if this how they should work or not, with some dictionaries siding squarely in the both camp and others trying to say mostly descriptive.) Either it describes objective reality sufficiently or not. Robin's argument consisted of "belief [in the meaning of a word that defines objective reality]" is subject to group opinion about it's truthfulness, but reincarnation, "belief [in the meaning of a word that defines objective reality]" is not.

The way I'm reading it, you've swapped out the first usage of B, for a second meaning, that is B is "belief in words having meaning solely determined by enough people." Which wasn't what I said at all, nor was it was Robin said.

So, I'm still in the dark as why this is a false analogy. Your point about dictionaries solely being descriptive is incorrect, you've shifted B into two different meanings, the second isn't part of either Robin or my summary.

Again, I could be wrong, but I'm not seeing it.

Did I misunderstand Robin? Was my summary of his argument incorrect?

Andrew G. said...

Here's where I'm not in agreement: "since words mean nothing more nor less than what people believe them to mean". The argument Robin used wasn't about meanings and words in general, but the specific meaning of a single word "Atheist" which does indeed attempt to describe objective reality.

No, here you're confusing the word with its referent. The word "Atheism" is not the same thing as the belief system we refer to by the name atheism. (Henceforth I'll use quotes to distinguish the name from the referent.)

The belief system we call atheism is a belief system about the nature of objective reality; but the association between the word "Atheism" and the belief system it refers to is not itself an objective fact, but rather exists only in people's minds.

Words are a tool of communication. If I say to you "I am a florb", then I have communicated nothing, because you have no knowledge of a referent for the word "florb" and therefore you cannot construe the meaning without additional information. But suppose you then see the word "florb" used in various contexts; you might form a belief in the meaning of the word, and consequently about the meaning of my statement. Notice that objective facts are not involved in this process.

A good dictionary lists definitions of words based on actual usage, and as such is essentially an attempt to summarize millions of individual beliefs about the meanings of words. A dictionary entry is incomplete if it fails to include a widely used meaning of a word, regardless of whether anyone considers that usage "correct"; likewise, a dictionary entry is incorrect if it disagrees with actual usage. A dictionary might choose to indicate whether a given usage is considered standard, or indicate variations in usage associated with different language varieties (dialects, registers, etc.)

The prescriptive effect of a dictionary is itself limited by both the extent to which it is believed to be correct, and the extent to which it is believed to have prescriptive force. It is nonetheless an observed fact that the actual usage of words can change faster than the typical publication cycle of dictionaries, which rather limits the prescriptive effect. But even if you believe in the prescriptive force of dictionaries, that does not affect the fact that in actual communication, what matters is the participants' belief about the meanings of words and not the dictionary definitions. (The prescriptive effect is limited to trying to influence those beliefs, for example via education.)

The distinction you're missing with regard to reincarnation is that we're not arguing about the meaning of the word "reincarnation" (we presumably agree on that), but about the fact of whether it exists. The fact is objective in a way that the meanings of words are not.

Russell said...

"The belief system we call atheism is a belief system about the nature of objective reality; but the association between the word "Atheism" and the belief system it refers to is not itself an objective fact, but rather exists only in people's minds."

I don't see how this adds to anything. Watch:
"The belief system we call reincarnation is a belief system about the nature of objective reality; but the association between the word "Reincarnation" and the belief system it refers to is not itself an objective fact, but rather exists only in people's minds."

Since the same can be said about reincarnation, this fails to differentiate between the two arguments.

"Words are a tool of communication. If I say to you "I am a florb", then I have communicated nothing, because you have no knowledge of a referent for the word "florb" and therefore you cannot construe the meaning without additional information. But suppose you then see the word "florb" used in various contexts; you might form a belief in the meaning of the word, and consequently about the meaning of my statement. Notice that objective facts are not involved in this process."

By stating "I am a florb" you've invoked an objective fact. You are, or you are not, a florb. Florb is something with a set of characteristics. And guess what I am going to do to figure out what a florb means, I'm going to use a dictionary. As an authority. Like millions of people do daily.

I'm not sure on your language history, but I have been immersed in Portuguese by living in Brazil, I limp along in Spanish (Mother-in-law is from Peru, we speak a smattering of Spanish), have high school level of understanding of French and one college class of Japanese, and muddle along in Latin. All of which in all my studies required the use of a dictionary as an authority. It happens all the time, in all cultures with written languages. Words are tools, they express concepts about objective reality. The reason I bring this up isn't to say "Look! I is super smart! Respect my authority!" but to counter your assertion that dictionaries aren't authorities. I realize this isn't completely on tangent, but if you insist there are two different types of arguments involved, you had best be able to defend that assertion, and so far you haven't convinced me :)

"A dictionary entry is incomplete if it fails to include a widely used meaning of a word, regardless of whether anyone considers that usage "correct""
Come again? You can't argue that words have meaning solely due to what people think they mean, then make this argument. Slang, for an example, doesn't have the same representation in standard dictionary as older words. Take 'shorty' for example, dictionary.com, merriam-webster.com and webster-dictionary.org only have standard definitions at the most, while urbandictionary.com has both the older slang meaning if a young man just starting at something and the newer meaning of a fine woman. Are you suggesting that the urban dictionary is more correct than the old standard dictionaries?

"likewise, a dictionary entry is incorrect if it disagrees with actual usage"

I disagree, take 'irregardless' for a counterexample. merriam-webster.com tells you flat out not to use it (prescriptive, acting as an authority) while dictionary.com merely notes it is considered nonstandard (descriptive). The dictionary entry is correct, despite the incorrect actual usage.
(cont)

Russell said...

part 2.
"The prescriptive effect of a dictionary is itself limited by both the extent to which it is believed to be correct, and the extent to which it is believed to have prescriptive force. It is nonetheless an observed fact that the actual usage of words can change faster than the typical publication cycle of dictionaries, which rather limits the prescriptive effect. But even if you believe in the prescriptive force of dictionaries, that does not affect the fact that in actual communication, what matters is the participants' belief about the meanings of words and not the dictionary definitions. (The prescriptive effect is limited to trying to influence those beliefs, for example via education.)"

All of this doesn't negate the fact that dictionaries are authoritative. Dictionaries are the map, not the territory, of the language, and as such they have the same shortcomings as all maps. Nonetheless they function as prescriptive authorities.

"The distinction you're missing with regard to reincarnation is that we're not arguing about the meaning of the word "reincarnation" (we presumably agree on that), but about the fact of whether it exists. The fact is objective in a way that the meanings of words are not."

You are right, I hadn't thought of this distinction. It seems irrelevant, Robin's arguments were identical in form, but argument 1 asserted the truth based on popular consensus while argument 2 said the truth couldn't be based on popular consensus.

Stan's argument was thus : For 'A', this definition in the dictionary description is correct.
Robin: No, because popular opinion defines the truth of something, the dictionary is meaningless.

Second argument.
Robin: Popular opinion cannot decided the truth about something, their opinion is meaningless.

The form is the same, the 'something' doesn't redefine the form. The conclusions were opposites using the same form.

By the way, in a previous comment you made a statement about B (I'll call it B1) and then later changed the definition to something else, let's call it B2. Are you saying that B1 is the same as B2?

Here are the relevant comments:
"In this case, A is "belief in reincarnation", B is "belief in a specific meaning of the word 'atheism'", the property P is "truth value is not determined by the number of believers", and the analogy is that both A and B are beliefs. "

And B2
"belief in words having meaning solely determined by enough people."

Did I misunderstand what you were saying in B1 and B2?

Andrew G. said...

To focus on the main point and ignore the digressions:

Stan's argument was thus : For 'A', this definition in the dictionary description is correct.
Robin: No, because popular opinion defines the truth of something, the dictionary is meaningless.

Second argument.
Robin: Popular opinion cannot decided the truth about something, their opinion is meaningless.


Here's that equivocation or false analogy again. The two highlighted uses of "something" are referring to different categories of thing, and therefore the two arguments are not equivalent regardless of form.

In the first argument, the "something" is a word/referent association that exists only in people's heads and which is therefore determined exclusively by belief.

In the second argument, the "something" being referred to is not a word definition or other mental construct but an assertion about the objective universe, and therefore is not affected in any way by anyone's belief (that's what "objective" means).

I'm not sure how I could explain it any clearer. If you can't grasp the basic difference between a belief about people's beliefs and a belief about objective reality, then there is no hope for logical argument with you. To take the most extreme example, do you not agree that the truth of the statement "many people believe that the Earth is 6000 years old" is in fact determined solely by people's beliefs? If I took everyone who believed that the Earth was 6000 years old and convinced them otherwise, would not the statement become false even though I made no change to objective reality? But that the truth of the statement "the Earth is about 4.65 billion years old" is not determined in any way by people's beliefs, assuming we agree on the meanings of the words in it?

Russell said...

"To focus on the main point and ignore the digressions:"
Whoa now, these 'digressions' are important in establishing your premises of your argument. Besides, this is an internet discussion, digressions are part and parcel of it :)

"The two highlighted uses of "something" are referring to different categories of thing, and therefore the two arguments are not equivalent regardless of form."

Lost me there, the form is what I am complaining about, not the categories being equal. Similar, yes, but not identical. And therein may lie my ignorance.

The definition of a false analogy I pulled from http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm:
"In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether they both have property P."

I had intended to argue that forms Robin used were equivalent and since the deductive forms are the same, the conclusions must be the same. I've tried to show that B has property P, regardless of A's possession of P. Must be a failing on my part. I'll keep trying.

Let's bounce back to what I said: "first arguing that a large enough set of people can dictate the truth about a belief, then saying it doesn't matter the size of the set, the set cannot dictate the truth about a belief."

The forms are the same. Let's look at the different somethings.
(cont.)

Russell said...

(part 2)

"In the first argument, the "something" is a word/referent association that exists only in people's heads and which is therefore determined exclusively by belief."

And there is still where I disagree with what you are stating. Aside from the form, the first something is Robin saying the true definition of Atheists is driven by popular opinion. That's the point, not what word is a signifier for what reference. Atheists are a set with particular properties in objective reality, and Robin insisted that those properties are set by popular opinion.

It's the same as the second, but he argues the exact opposite. Reincarnation, a belief about how objective reality is defined, isn't driven by popular opinion. Using the same form must lead to the same conclusions.

"I'm not sure how I could explain it any clearer."
You have been clear on your argument, I seem to failing in my attempts to explain my point.

"If you can't grasp the basic difference between a belief about people's beliefs and a belief about objective reality, then there is no hope for logical argument with you."

Possibly so! I try not to harbor any illusions about my mental competency; if we find out there is no hope for me, at least I will be able to check that off. And quite a relief that would be, too!

To rephrase your argument, if you don't mind:
'To take the most extreme example, do you not agree that the truth of the statement "'Atheism' is defined by popular opinion" is in fact determined solely by people's beliefs? If I took everyone who believed that 'Atheism' is defined by popular opinion and convinced them otherwise, would not the statement become false even though I made no change to objective reality? But that the truth of the statement "'Atheism' describes a set of people with certain properties" is not determined in any way by people's beliefs, assuming we agree on the meanings of the words in it?'

You keep insisting I've gone off the rails on this, but I just don't see it. Had the argument been 'a belief about people's beliefs and a belief about objective reality'' I could see where I dove into the weeds, but the sticking points for me are the forms are the same and the arguments aren't what you stated, but what I said before: "No, because popular opinion defines the truth of something, the dictionary is meaningless." and "Popular opinion cannot decided the truth about something, their opinion is meaningless".

Let me try to put it this way.
Stan: A dictionary is a valid source of truth.
Robin: No, only popular opinion is a valid source of truth.

Later Robin: Popular opinion is not a valid source of truth.

You see what I am saying here? The form is the same, the arguments are the same at the core, but Robin asserts one thing one way then contradicts himself.

I think at this point we're just going around in circles. I thank you for your attempts to explain this to me, if you wish I'll let you have the last word on this. I don't think I can restate my case any better than I have, so however you wish to respond I'll read with interest, but refrain from continually restating my position.

Andrew G. said...

Popular opinion is a valid (indeed the only primary) source of truth about what popular opinion is.

Popular opinion is never a valid source of truth about objective facts.

Why is this so hard to understand? The first statement is basically a tautology and thus necessarily true, and the second is true by definition (of the word "objective"). Neither is arguable to even the slightest degree.

The fact that two statements have the same form cannot entail that they have the same truth value. Trivial examples:

"I am the only source of truth about my beliefs." (true)

"I am the only source of truth about your beliefs." (false)

"I am the only source of truth about the price of beans." (false)

Clearly, these simple substitutions change the truth value of the statement. Your argument that Robin's two statements conflict because they have the same form (other than a negation) is therefore completely preposterous.

To rephrase your argument, if you don't mind:
'To take the most extreme example, do you not agree that the truth of the statement "'Atheism' is defined by popular opinion" is in fact determined solely by people's beliefs?


No, obviously I don't agree, because once again you've taken a statement about beliefs and substituted a statement about facts. "Many people believe X" is a statement about beliefs and its truth is determined by whether many people do indeed believe X. "'Atheism' is defined by popular opinion" is (whether true or false) a statement about facts, not beliefs.

The truth about statements about oranges is determined by the facts about oranges. The truth of statements about apples is determined by the facts about apples. The truth of statements about popular beliefs is determined by the facts about popular beliefs. None of these statements imply that the truth of statements about apples are determined by the facts about oranges, or that the truth of statements about oranges are determined by the facts about popular beliefs.

Unknown said...

Stan,

I’ve figured out why you see a contradiction in that proverb.

You would be right that H was incoherent and self-contradictory if it had said “claims without evidence can be deemed false”. But what H said was “claims without evidence can be dismissed”.

You can reject a claim as unsupported without believing it to be false. Rather like being agnostic.


Fred,

“Providing a single example of the word being used in this way does not mean it was universally used in this way.”

As you know, words have multiple usages. My point was “atheism” has been used that way for centuries. Would you like additional examples?

“One would think it would matter a great deal what d'Holbach's definition of atheism was, but that probably wouldn't suit your argument.”

For d’Holbach’s definition to suit yours, his “All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God” would have meant that “Newborns, having no idea of God, affirmatively believe God does not exist.”


Russell and Andrew,

Thanks, couldn’t have put it much better myself. (Though I might quibble with Andrew calling atheism a “belief system”, which to my mind entails at least two beliefs more than atheism contains.)