Showing posts with label Debate. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Debate. Show all posts

Wednesday, June 5, 2013

Burden Of Proof And Atheist Intellectual Responsibility

Atheists virtually always deny that they have any Burden of Rebuttal when they claim to reject theist arguments and propositions. They merely claim that theists have not proven their case, or have not provided evidence. And they do so without any justification for their claim.

Said one Atheist:
” If there was such a thing as the burden of rebuttal you could never believe anything as there is an infinite number of concepts to rebuttal. Since this leads to absurdities, it is the burden of the one making the positive claim to provide evidence.”
Qualia Soup

There is likely to be only one valid rebuttal containing one sequence of valid premises; if the Atheist opposition cannot provide a valid refutation, then there are, of course, an infinite number of non-valid rebuttals based on non-valid premises. But that infinite regression has no bearing on whether there exists one, single valid rebuttal. The originator of the original argument is obliged to point out the non-validity of the false rebuttals, in other words, the theist will point out the errors in the Atheist's false case. Of course, iff there is no valid rebuttal, then the conversation will potentially go on infinitely while the rebuttor searches for a valid reason to rebut where none exists.

However, the Atheist is free to showcase his presumed intellectual abilities by demonstrating the actual, factual errors he perceives to exist in the theist proposition.

But the Atheist position is not really that. The position taken by Atheists is that they can “rationally” reject any argument without giving either a reason or reasoning for their rejection. They merely claim that the theist argument is "not evidence" (Note 1) or "not proven"(Note 2).

But that is not a rational position; it is, in fact, anti-rational. Given the opportunity to describe in detail what he thinks the standards are for either evidence or for logical deduction, the Atheist demurrs and claims "no Burden of Rebuttal". The internet is rife with this claim.

If an Atheist will not provide any reasons for having rejected an argument, then his reason for having done so is not based on logic or evidence or he would have provided that. No reason = no reasoning. As with all things Atheist, the self reigns, and the emotions dominate: the rejection is emotionally based. Why?

In order to maintain his personal bliss as unencumbered by the authority of external rules (both moral and logical), the Atheist will rationalize reasons to support his position on the intellectual responsibility to show his reasoning, whether in the VOID or having emerged into untethered free thought. But in a debate where tethered, principled deduction rules, his own form of logic invariably fails him completely. Thus, if he has no rational refutation (and he does not), then he claims that he needs no refutation anyway. He argues that he need not give any reasons or reasoning for his claim that “there is no evidence” (false), that the evidence is insufficient to convince (why is that, then? What are your reasons, your needs?), that there must be physical evidence (there is, but it is never addressed when presented), etc.

Why is the evidence for theism which is given to the Atheist blanket-rejected out of hand, never point by point with counter deductive arguments? Few make any "logic" arguments, none make any disciplined deductive counter arguments, and generally none address the actual issue, which is direct, hard evidence which categorically proves that Atheism is correct and valid and incontrovertible. (Never mind the recent inclusion of agnosticism into the category of Atheism, a false re-definition ploy in a failed attempt to justify giving no refutation).

It resolves to this: either the Atheist has valid reasons of logic or evidence, or he does not. Either he can justify his rejection, or he cannot. That he will not, or need not justify his rejection is merely absurd, and is intellectual dishonest.

There is only one valid reason for an Atheist to reject his responsibility to actually rebut, with statements of logic or evidence, theist arguments and evidence. That reason is that the Atheist has no reason to give for his rejection, and he has no reasoning to share. At bottom, the reason is emotional neediness, not rational discovery of valid and true deduction.

Denial of the intellectual responsibility for justifying the rejection of an argument is a prime example of Atheist dishonesty. In this case it is intellectual dishonesty, but intellectual dishonesty is an indicator of moral dishonesty as well. To say "you have failed to make your case" while declining to say why is not a reason: it is a lie. A lie is a lie.

To take one step further, when the Atheist community advertises itself as “Good Without God”, it is both intellectually dishonest, and morally dishonest. First, no person is completely good, and to make that claim is morally: !Good; the actual question is when and where are you !Good? The statement, "Good without God" is a conclusion without premises, and is demonstrably false.

Second is the issue of what Atheists might think constitutes "Good". Atheist philosophers cannot agree on what the term "Good" even means. Common variety Atheists don’t even think that far into the issue: their claim essentially is that because they are not in prison, that makes them Good. But they are not even up to their own standards of “high empathy” as “Good”, so Atheist claims of being Good are merely blustered propaganda and without any substance.

The Atheist claim of not needing to provide justification for rejecting theist arguments is both intellectually dishonest and morally dishonest.

More on intellectual responsibility here and here.


Note 1. When pressed on the issue of what constitutes "evidence" many Atheists claim to accept non-material evidence, but then reject all evidence which is non-material.

Note 2. When pressed on the issue of logical arguments presented by theists, Atheists make a number of claims, including "Which god?", and "Too many theist arguments to address", and when pressed hard to address a specific argument, they either claim not to understand the issue, or they present demonstrable logical fallacies while making false claims of fallacy against the argument.

Tuesday, September 20, 2011

The Debate at Vox's Place Continues....

The case against gods is being made over at Vox’s blog by Dominic Salterelli.  He hypothesizes thus:

” So, to make myself absolutely crystal clear on the matter, the hypothesis is:
For any new experience or phenomenon, when man attempts to explain the phenomenon using the tools for understanding at his disposal, the first attempt at explanation is almost invariably wrong.”

Based on this principle, plus the idea that gods are the concept of primitive understandings only, then the concept of gods must be wrong.

Now, even if true, does this hypothesis satisfy the criterion of evidence for the non-existence of gods?  Or is it merely a suggestion of unreliability in the acquisition of a concept in primitive times?  Does this disprove gods or God?  Or is it a strained attempt to discredit by the use of a negative proposition, which itself has no evidence which makes it conclusive?

Dominic uses the example of asking a child where babies come from: the child’s answer will be incorrect.  The premise here is that gods were created to provide explanations not otherwise available to the primitives.  Presupposed but not stated is the principle that there is no other reason for theism to exist, certainly not for moderns.  He could have just come out and said all that.  But that argument, taken directly, is obviously speculation; it cannot be proven in any sense of that word.

Moreover, it presupposes that gods do not exist and therefore could not have been the reason for conceptualizing gods.  Here’s the form:

IF [gods do / did not exist and could not have been the reason for early human concepts of deity],
THEN [concepts of deity must have been based on error].

So the argument being made is (a) entirely speculative (not evidence), (b) ignores modern reasons for theology, and (c) is circular because the conclusion is contained in the premises.

I don’t know what reasoning Vox will use to answer this hypothesis, this is merely my take.

Saturday, July 30, 2011

Theist–Atheist Debate: the General Case.

Moderator:
We are here tonight to debate the issue of whether a deity exists. First, the Theist:

Theist:
If the theory of Cause and Effect is consistent enough to be the basis for empirical science, then it should be consistent enough for the justification of the probability that the universe had a cause which was greater than the sum of the components of the universe itself. If that probability is in fact justified and without empirical or rational refutation, then belief that it might be the case is justified.

Atheist:
I have no God theory, and I don’t have to prove anything. The theist has to provide proof that meets my personal approval, and I only approve of material evidence, because material stuff is all that exists, and no, I don’t have to prove it.
(Audience applause)

Theist:
That refutes my argument…. How?

Atheist:
Your logic sucks.
(Audience applause and laughter)

Theist:
Please provide particulars so we can discuss actual cases.

Atheist:
Your logic REALLY sucks.
(Audience applause and laughter and lighters aflame overhead)

Moderator:
Well, that was quick. Thanks for participating, I think we all learned a lot here tonight.
(Crowd roars and rushes to congratulate the Atheist debater on his clear win)

Blog Analysts:
"Well, the Atheist wiped up the floor with the Theist last night. The Atheist was right on the money with his clear answers, while the Theist logic REALLY sucked".

Saturday, February 19, 2011

An Unarmed Christian

An unarmed peasant walks into a drug kingpin’s camp and says, “You’re all under arrest and you’re all going to prison to be tortured.” This is the same virtual scenario as this Christian who calls into an Atheist show and informs them that “if they don’t change their ways, they will go to Hell.”

The Christian is totally unarmed and ignorant. He is completely unaware of the Atheist capability he is facing: rapid-fire Atheodicies which the Christian has never heard or entertained in his entire life. Arguments which purportedly destroy Christianity with the sheer weight of their “logic”. The internal contradictions of science vs Christianity.

The Christian is absolutely chewed to pieces.

Here are the arguments that were totally foreign and unanswerable by the Christian:

1. Why are you my enemy?

2. Why should anyone believe it?

3. God is a “grotesque monster who punishes people”.

4. Is the earth 6,000 years old? (Christian: Ummmm).
Science says the earth is vastly older. (Christian: Ummm, yes there is a discrepancy).

5. So Christianity is self-contradictory.

6. The Bible is copies of copies of copies by anonymous authors; no originals exist. There are no reports to justify the miracles of the Bible.

7. The Christian deity is relying on text to spread the word; no self respecting deity would do that. In fact, that is the Nail In The Coffin for Christianity, according to Atheist #1.

8. The “God of Christianity is amazingly stupid if it wants to achieve its goals by relying on text or languages or anecdotal testimony”. It is not a pathway to truth, so either God doesn’t exist or doesn’t care.

9. Christian asserts “faith”.
Atheist #1: ”Faith is not a path to truth. Reason is a path to truth.
Atheists do NOT have any faith; what they have is ”trust based on evidence”
.
Faith failed the Atheist when he was a Christian. His prayers were not answered. ”Faith is NOT a virtue. Faith is gullibility. It is evidence that determines whether your perception of reality is reasonable and in conjunction with the world as it is”


10. Christian: ”The church provides community and some values.”
Atheist #1: ”So what?” It serves mostly the in-group. Besides there is no benefit that cannot be provided by secular sources.

Atheist #2: You think terrible things of us and threaten us [with torture in Hell]; we cannot be friends.

Atheist #1: I’m a good person. Christianity is divisive. Christians are ”duped” by divisive, and hateful religion. Since rejecting religion, he doesn’t have to worry about other people going to Hell.

Christians are entirely one-sided. For him, it was Christians who ended relationships, not him. Christians cannot tolerate Atheists, who are “of the Devil”. But that can be demonstrated ONLY with reason and evidence, not with faith.

Fixing people is “absolute poison”.

If faith is all there is to discuss, then there is nothing to talk about.
11. The video ends with the Humpty Dumpty snippet: Humpty Dumpty didn’t exist, so neither does God.


Now let’s look at each argument.
1. Why are you my enemy?
This is a “when did you stop beating your wife” fallacy. The Christian didn’t come forward as an enemy, he was dubbed so by the Atheist. It’s an Ad Hominem sort of disorienting attack.
2. Why should anyone believe it?
This is an excellent question and the Christian was completely without ammunition. Not a single theodicy nor a single demand for proof of their belief, nothing. Capitulation at the start.
3. God is a “grotesque monster who punishes people”.
Another Ad Hominem sort of attack that ignores any concept of, for example, a creating first cause. Guaranteed to disorient an ignorant Christian.
4. Is the earth 6,000 years old? (Christian: Ummmm).

Science says the earth is vastly older. (Christian: Ummm, yes there is a discrepancy).
Literalists should never even speak to Atheists. The New Testament is specifically against literalism, btw.
5. So Christianity is self-contradictory.
A false accusation, and not even valid if the statement is that “Christianity is contradictory to Science”. Science is never absolute. So it cannot be argued that science trumps anything.
6. The Bible is copies of copies of copies by anonymous authors; no originals exist. There are no reports to justify the miracles of the Bible.
The Christian again is unarmed. For those who choose to argue these things there is plenty of secondary evidence of the martyring of those who viewed the miracles first hand, who stuck by the evidence they knew to be valid.

The biblical New Testament texts now go back to circa 50 to 60 A.D. The letters of Paul are of known authorship. There is much else to present as evidence.
7. The Christian deity is relying on text to spread the word; no self respecting deity would do that. In fact, that is the "Nail In The Coffin for Christianity", according to Atheist #1.
This has to be one of the most arrogant statements ever: assuming to know exactly what a self-respecting deity would do – especially in light of the massive success of Christianity as a growing belief system which originated from a person who wrote nothing down himself. Atheist #1 nailed the coffin shut by asserting his own superiority to his concept of a deity, and anointed himself deity in the stead of his failed deity concept.
8. The “God of Christianity is amazingly stupid if it wants to achieve its goals by relying on text or languages or anecdotal testimony”. It is not a pathway to truth, so either God doesn’t exist or doesn’t care.
If text, languages and anecdotal testimony don’t provide a path to truth, then what is left (assuming that truth exists)? No history or scientific reports or testimony from other persons needs even show up: it has no truth value. So only personal experience, presumably of an empirical nature, qualifies. This is probably scientism, and scientism is an underlying current throughout, although not specifically stated. But the repeated call for evidence is not accompanied by an evidentiary theory of what qualifies as evidence. And that point is usually a knife in the heart of Atheist theorizing, because Atheists are virtually always materialists, at least the evangelicals seem to be, and materialism has no rational basis for itself, and is self-contradictory and thus non-rational.

The assertion of #8 is delivered with two Ad Hominems and a false dilemma. First the deity is “amazingly stupid”, by doing it His own peculiar way. At the end, the dilemma asserts that the deity is either non-existent or doesn’t care, if He does it His way and not the prescribed method of Atheist #1… except that Atheist #1 doesn’t prescribe a method, he only denounces text, the deity, etc. And it is not a valid dilemma, though, because it fails to recognize several other possibilities: a) the Atheist is wrong, and there is value to text (demonstrably); b) the Atheist doesn’t actually know better than a deity would know; c) the deity communicates in non-material fashion also. It is entirely likely that the last three choices are more valid than the two choices given in the dilemma. (It’s not a di-lemma).
9. Christian asserts “faith”.
Massive fail on the Christian’s part. I see no need to say more.
10. Christian: ”The church provides community and some values.”
Massive fail on the Christian’s part. The Atheist is entirely right to say “so what?”

However, the Atheists continued to rattle off some attacks that were ripe for counterattack, for which the Christian was again completely unarmed:

Atheist #1: ”So what?” It serves mostly the in-group. Besides there is no benefit that cannot be provided by secular sources.
Look back at Katrina. Christian organizations from all over were present in the Gulf Coast region, even a year later. American Atheists? Not so much. The benefit could, indeed be secular, but generally that is minimal and late to arrive and early to quit.
Atheist #2: You think terrible things of us and threaten us [with torture in Hell]; we cannot be friends.
This is true. Christians should not spend time with hard core Atheists, other than to present their case, and leave when the invectives begin. It’s actually biblical, for the literalists.
Atheist #1: I’m a good person. Christianity is divisive. Christians are ”duped” by divisive, and hateful religion. Since rejecting religion, he doesn’t have to worry about other people going to Hell.
He fails to define what his standard of "goodness" is; it certainly is not the Christian standard, which he is not hesitant to reject. So why should we think of him as “good”? In his own words, "why should we believe that"? And when will his standard change in order to accommodate new behaviors he chooses to pursue?

Now he runs a call-in show where he calls Christians duped, divisive, hateful enemies. This he thinks qualifies him to be called good.
Atheist #1: Christians are entirely one-sided. For him, it was Christians who ended relationships, not him. Christians cannot tolerate Atheists, who are “of the Devil”. But that can be demonstrated ONLY with reason and evidence, not with faith.
The standards of reason and evidence are presumed to be in favor of the Atheist; this is never challenged by the hapless Christian, who is like a mouse in a snake cage.
Atheist #2; Fixing people is “absolute poison”.
This is true, for people who are convinced of their own perfection especially. Rabid Atheist evangelists tend to be so convicted. Yet they insist on trying fix Christians, who are their avowed "enemies".
11. Ended with the Humpty Dumpty snippet: Humpty Dumpty didn’t exist, so neither does God.
This is a very cheap fallacy: It is a reductionist, false analogy, and a category error; no one ever claimed that the first cause was an anthropomorphized egg.

Plus it was a cheap shot at the end of the discussion without any chance for rebuttal, not that the Christian had that capability.
Unarmed Christian should stay in church, it appears to me. If they wish to debate Atheists, they should become fully armed and aware of their opponents defenses. Otherwise they are meat in the Atheists maw.

There was a brief reference to Slick's TAG argument which the Atheists slid deftly to the side: "that's refuted", they claimed authoritatively. The argument then was dead to the conversation because the Christian couldn't or wouldn't refute the ambiguous claim of refutation. Any argument for God comes with an immediate Atheist claim of "refutation", and words will tend to be redefined as required to get that refutation. Then using self-important claims of refutation lends a credibility to the claim that cannot be attained logically.

In this discussion, fallacy devoured ignorance; ignorance is impotent.

Friday, January 29, 2010

Analysis vs Debate

Much of what happens on a blog is in the form of a debate. The blogger asserts a premise/conclusion and the commenters take sides. The result seems like a debate, but is uncontrolled and is frequently unmanageable, deteriorating into opinionated jabbing and posturing. True debating has rules, is somewhat managed, and even then frequently becomes opinionated jabbing and posturing.

The context of a debate is not at all analytical. Analysis is the objective, dispassionate probing of axioms, premises, evidence and the logic leading to conclusions. Debate is the scoring of points in order to win a competition; the points need not be based on rationality and can be gained by forcing the opposition into a corner or an infinite loop or some tactic to make him appear foolish, unsure, lost or some other characteristic of a losing arguer. This is very easily done with simple argumentation devices such as outright denial of definitional issues, pursuit of fallacies as valid logic, attacking valid logic as fallacious, persistently veering off topic, attacking the opposition as a person or attacking his credentials, etc. It is easier to jam up a debate than it is to produce a legitimate rejoinder.

Formal debates start with a premise and conclusion, by a side that starts with the burden of proof. The burden of proof requires that the axioms, premises, evidence be sound, and the conclusion follows logically from them.

The opposition has the burden of rejoinder, which is the requirement that the opposition assert any non-valid axioms, premises, and evidence, with valid axioms, premises and evidence found in the original proposition; or assert the logical fallacy behind the reasoning of the original assertion. And then the opposition has the burden of proof for the presentation of the opposing proposition, including assertion of valid axioms, premises, and evidence, along with a logically valid conclusion.

Then the original side becomes the opposition, with the burden of rejoinder, as shown above.

Formal debates even have rules, such as that non-monotonic or binary reasoning is or is not acceptable, or that certain thresholds of probability equate to non-acceptable or acceptable ( e.g.: <00.0001% is not an acceptable probability for accepting a premise, >99.999% probability is acceptable; in between is subject to further scrutiny).

What really happens in the blogosphere is rarely like the formal process. The drive to win is frequently fed by an attachment to an agenda that is not the desire to reveal truth. When an agenda is threatened, the proponent starts to use tactics rather than logic, and to insist that these tactics are not fallacies, they are in fact logic. And it is difficult-to-impossible to ascertain the opposition’s true set of presuppositions, and the opposition might even deny that they have them.

The result is a chaotic mess that profits neither side, much less the observers.

It is understandable that a proponent of an idea that is essential to his worldview would become stressed to the point of constant fallacious assertions in order to protect that worldview. After all, to lose such an argument threatens his entire view of the world and of himself. And debating is win/lose argumentation.

This is the reason that I sometimes cease an argument. When an argument becomes non-rational, in the sense that the niceties of formal arguments are rejected in favor of win/lose tactics, there is no cause to continue because there is no chance of arriving at a rational, valid conclusion in that atmosphere.

I have dedicated this blog to analysis, and I welcome those who question any of these analyses and wish to arrive at valid conclusions. These comments are valuable and highly desirable.

But when a win/lose argument is found unable to be redirected into an analytical channel, I will assert my right to stop it, and move on. This is not about win/lose, it is about discovering the extent of reality and the possible existence of validity and truth despite a culture that denies it.

And I do encourage everyone to engage with me in this analytic pursuit.